Battle Arena Toshinden (PS1) Forum  /  Leaderboard updated / suggestion thread
  DBcadeDBcade
(edited: )

Hello fellow Battle Arena Toshinden Speedrunners,

The Leaderboard has been updated with change to the character variables as well as an update to the images.

When I joined the rankings and was later added to mod, many runs were in place so I don't plan on removing any categories with current times in them.

Please post here if you have something you want to be added or have a question/suggestion. You can also message me anytime.

 
  DBcadeDBcade

Quick update and shoutouts

Speedrunner @NickDoaneNickDoane who has now swept the board using Rungo.
The record was previously held this year by Spreedrunner @Tyler2022Tyler2022 who cleanly perfected the infinite loop I had found with Ellis.

A offer was mentioned by @AllAgesGamingAllAgesGaming a few months back to retime everything so the PAL version can be capable of competing , I would be happy to let him do so, However I will message other runners to check if this is acceptable, or you can message here your opinions or consent.

Lets see some new runners and comebacks, if anyone wants to challenge Battle Arena Toshinden 2 or 3, those leaderboards are available as well.

 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022
(edited: )

So I wasn't part of or invited to any discussion and the board has already been changed?

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  DBcadeDBcade

Sorry I thought the message was sent to everyone I tagged in the post before this. You can state your thoughts here, of course its an open discussion still.

 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022
(edited: )

For one I'm not sure why AllAgesGaming was turned into a mod as he has been inactive since he last ran the game about 6 months ago with no foreseeable interest in returning.

I personally do not see the point in needing to separate PAL and NTSC. If someone is that troubled by the "disadvantage" of PAL they can simply run on Emulator seeing as that's allowed.

Should also clarify that AllAgesGaming runs are done on PSClassic by adding that as a console variable to the board.

I would also prefer if Very Easy was the default category and we do away with 2 Bout as it just adds more RNG and not much more to the run imo but if this doesn't happen I won't lose any sleep over it, no big deal.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  DBcadeDBcade

I think we can set Very Easy to the default. All Ages asked for MOD over the Summer and had asked about converting before. I will bring him into the conversation.

Sorry its never an easy decision with so many variables. I will add the PSClassic as a console right now. Any other suggestions are welcome.

 
  DBcadeDBcade

I added PSClassic now.

I just realized its very late right now so it might be a while before a response. I think AllAgesGaming Is easy to reach on Discord if you wanted to tell him the same thing you posted above directly. No favoritism here, I just always want to be inclusive so everyone can play.

 
  AllAgesGamingAllAgesGaming
(edited: )

yeah the thing is with the time conversion
there is no possible way for a PAL player to get WR
if there is no time conversion
emulator can be EASILY cheated

the PAL and NTSC conversion is completely fair
that's how games ran back then
and other speedrun games with NTSC and PAL differences got conversions

PAL runs at 5/6 the speed of NTSC, therefore PAL times will be slower.
A conversion makes up for that, and makes it easier to track times across versions.

And I am not active anymore simply because for me playing on PAL it is not possible for me to get a good time due to the community not wanting conversion.

Conversion is simply the way to make up for PAL's slower speed and change it into an NTSC equivalent.

Emulator, as DBcade and I talked about many months ago, can be easily cheated and also can provide a HUGE advantage.
This is because you can map buttons to your keyboard, putting emulator players at a ridiculous advantage. You should only be able to play with a console with a real controller.

It would not be possible to beat NTSC times on PAL, therefore PAL players should be accounted for using a conversion. Remember that conversions are used in other games for this exact same reason.

the entire point of a conversion is to compensate for the PAL's timeloss

there's honestly no reason not to convert

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022
(edited: )

@AllAgesGamingAllAgesGaming Let me ask you a question why can't you just play NTSC Emulator? The basis of emulator being unfair due to binding keyboard buttons to controller buttons is preposterous. There's nothing stopping me with buying a convertor and playing with a different controller than what was intended (Dualshock). I would like you to list other games that account for PAL conversion other than Mario Kart 64 since you're so fixated on the philosophies in that game.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  dlimes13dlimes13
(edited: )

For something like this, separate PAL and NTSC. If it's that drastic of a difference, and you want everyone to play fair, just separate them. Doing math/conversions just sounds wack, and very confusing.

ApacheSmashApacheSmash, DBcadeDBcade and Tyler2022Tyler2022 like this. 
  DBcadeDBcade

Its funny to think this could have been solved if the PSclassic used the standard which is NTSC.

Generally with fighting games we don't separate regions. If there is a better version out there, its usually that's the version everyone agrees is played, it is the standard to separate consoles.

Overall and from the very beginning, this board varies from how I generally create or approach fighting games. Usually, 1 Round would be Any%, and the rest of the difficulties would be the default 2 rounds and settings. I didn't want to delete the runs or variables that were here previously, but now its caused this situation. So I apologize.

I am glad that this game is getting the attention it deserves but a solution that doesn't bloat the board is the best.

What does everyone think about letting @AllAgesGamingAllAgesGaming convert only his time in this case? Or Making a separate clear category for PSclassic as @dlimes13dlimes13 has suggested? I don't see a problem with either as it would not change the ranking.

On a final note, I have zero plan to ban emulation in this game, or in any games.

Tyler2022Tyler2022 likes this. 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022
(edited: )

Separation would be fine but I don't think it would bring any more runs to that category unless someone wants to fill up the board out of boredom. The only other PAL run is an Easy 2 Bout time from a year ago. I don't think retiming AllAge's runs are necessary imo

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  ApacheSmashApacheSmash

I only play on PAL, personally I don't think they should be separated but it's fine if they are. I don't think we should retime/convert run times. If you want NTSC loads, play on NTSC.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  dlimes13dlimes13

Special treatment for @AllAgesGamingAllAgesGaming to retime only his times is not right. Never should be an option IMO. I'd say either separate or just don't. At the end of the day speedrunning is a bit of an arms race. If NTSC is the fastest, then just play NTSC and let NTSC/PAL be on the same board. Emulators are highly accessible along with obtaining an NTSC copy.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  DBcadeDBcade

I didn't say I was giving special treatment. I offered an options to the community. Please don't twist my words. Even if you don't like one of the options I offered, there are different words you can use.

Aside from that, I like the discussion yourself and others put forward so I think that might be the best action. I will try and sort this out by tomorrow my time. My goal was to ultimately make boards cleaner, and rewrite the rules, etc.

Could I ask what ever would feel about getting rid of the 1 Round Bouts? Aside from Any%. I could move previous runs to that category.

 
  ApacheSmashApacheSmash

1 Round Bouts is better than 2 round imo. Should be default.

 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022
(edited: )

"And I am not active anymore simply because for me playing on PAL it is not possible for me to get a good time due to the community not wanting conversion." @AllAgesGamingAllAgesGaming

PAL is slower if that is why you are not running the game that is just immature and goofy. There are faster ways to play the game and you are wanting to die on this hill for some reason. You aren't even using actual hardware as the PSClassic is an emulation box lol so just redo your runs on a NTSC ROM and this discussion is over. No reason to compensate for PAL. Everything should be contextual and decision on timing on a game by game basis. And if you aren't intending to be active anymore I don't know why you got moderator or verifier.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022

"Could I ask what ever would feel about getting rid of the 1 Round Bouts? Aside from Any%. I could move previous runs to that category." @DBcadeDBcade

Just make 1 Bout default and I don't see a reason to add an Any% category as that is just Very Easy 1 Bout lol and if you do that then all Easy through Very Hard 1 Bout times would essentially be useless.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  PlywoodPlywood
(edited: )

Purely aesthetic thing, the transparency on the board for the panels is way too much and the colors clash. Background image is blurry and ugly. Default theme would look less janky.

DBcadeDBcade likes this. 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022

I also think that trimmed videos being a requirement shouldn't be too much to ask. In the past I've seen AllAgesGaming and the new runner NickDoane submit YouTube VODs without proper trimming and just looks messy imo. And it would only take a minute or two to trim the video and submit it like that. It really should be implied for good etiquette.

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