Forums  /  Talk  /  Able to Provide Proof but doesn't. OPEN DISCUSSION.
  DelnDeln

i would rather see a video than a picture tbh.

 
  Ya-GGYa-GG

Video > picture > splits. Splits mean really nothing if you don't have any video to support it. Or we can add splits with random numbers, and state this is WR.

Maybe this is a hard point of view, but I think that if anybody is willing to do speedrun seriously, he/she has to get decent recording stuff, even if it means to buy low price tools. There is just almost nothing to analyze or watch when someone does submit picture & splits only.

I'm not saying it should be forbidden, but for me, it's clearly the poorest sharing you can do with the community.

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

I always felt that trying to beat a proof-less record with another proof-less record opens up a can of worms that can't be closed, especially if one of the runs is from a moderator.

Video should always be recorded if possible. Like with what Yajijy said, if a runner actually cares about their runs being on a leaderboard, they should put in some effort into proving them. Even a video recorded from a potato will help in proving a record. Sure, it may not be an entertaining watch for viewers, but at least you have proof for your time. If you're in a situation where you have no means to prove your times (like me currently) then practice and refine your skill in the game until you have a means to. Of course, coming out of the blue and getting a WR in a popular game will catch some eyes, but at least then you can prove yourself.

 
  MASHMASH

A video with onscreen splits or splits provided with the video that can be followed are the best way to verify runs, without the video it makes it very hard to verify runs that could compete with WR runs etc.
Splits on their own are pretty much useless and even with photo proof its easy to shop or change the information to be incorrect.

I've had people submit videos and splits separately and with just a bit of extra time and timing the run myself to verify the splits its easier to tell if they are incorrect or not. They tried to submit just a video but due to pauses and the fact that the runs are timed RTA I simply asked that they resubmit with splits if they had them just to be safe and that was easy enough. mind you they record right from the console with no onscreen splits but they did time them manually with a splits timer app, so that was simple.

Hope any of this is useful, if not Sorry. =(

 
  BlueInfinity22BlueInfinity22

Proof is up to the communities. Some communities have a threshold for proof. Some don't require any at all, and some require proof even if your time is 30 hours for a 1 hour run.

Some mods I know will reject a run if you don't have a timer on-screen. Some mods will reject any run that twitch cut into parts. I don't agree with these, but I'm not part of the moderation for those games.

Seems weird to drag a global mod into it. But I guess I'm not understanding the situation fully.

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

I like how they both make no effort to even try to post proof. I also like how the mods somehow beat Racingmonster's time the next day without anything to show for it. cmonBruh

At least now racingmonster has most of the 1st place records. Gotta have the most world records Kappa

Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae likes this. 
  MASHMASH

from what your saying now is that your disagree with people being able to request a game and them not having a run for it to be allowed mod? correct me if I'm wrong but your saying that just cause someone doesn't run the game they should not mod for it? I though this was originally about providing proof for runs submitted to games?

If this is about whether someone should mod a game or not, I think it comes down to not just if they run the game, but more so If they are very knowledgeable about it. I think knowledgeable people of the games not just runners can be just as good as mods if not better then a runner themselves.

 
  zewingzewing

A time without a video is nothing. Get with the program

 
  HughHugh

Thing is, ever since you have submitted your times I've been trying to beat them. Yes I beat them but what about the ones I don't beat. How can you say I'm faking my times when I can't beat some of the times the you have?

 
  HughHugh

I've had runs rejected for no proof and some accepted. Just accept the fact that people provide runs without proof and stop stirring up all this drama with everything. There's no point to it. All your doing it making it worse. Why would I fake my runs when I'm a mod for the entire Mario Sports Series. Runners there trust me. Your the only person that has ever stirred up drama with me since I've been on this site. If I faked my runs why would I be the mod for Mario Sports series? I want your opinion on that

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

Just because you're a mod of a game/series doesn't give you a free pass on your runs. If that were the case, I could claim WR on every Command & Conquer game. I'm mod, I've shown runs before, so why would you question me?

Ten years ago, lack of video proof wasn't as frowned upon because of how difficult it was to capture a recording. Now it's cheap and easy, the excuse isn't there anymore.

Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae, MASHMASH and 3 others like this. 
  DrakodanDrakodan

This has been quite a hotly contested issue in the Sonic community lately, but I really don't see where the room for discussion is.

The Sonic Center is the go-to place for Sonic IL leaderboards, and has existed since the early 2000s. This being the case, it was originally created without the need for verification or proof on any submissions, and this was fine for the time, since as ROMaster pointed out, not everyone had the ability to capture their gameplay way back when. The problem is that this model has remained unchanged since the site's conception, and people are still expected to use an honour system, despite many cheaters being found out over the years. This has personal significance for me since I've carved myself out a niche in Sonic Adventure 2 as a Boss ILer, and I currently have most of the best existing recorded times. Most of my positions on the boards are #2, because one other person just claims to have the best times without any evidence to substantiate his claims. Moreover, the times that DID have proof no longer do have proof since he deleted his Youtube account, so my times are now the best recorded.

This sort of thing is stupid in 2016, and should not happen. If you're not recording your gameplay, you have no legitimate claim to the times you say that you have.

As far as the moderation side of things goes? There is only one position, as far as I'm concerned: Moderators should not self-verify. The ONLY exception to this rule is if you are the sole moderator for a game that nobody else runs, such as myself with Genesis Sparkster. I don't LIKE verifying my own runs there, but it's my only option short of asking a global moderator to do it.

I have seen more than enough instances of moderators failing to hold themselves to the standards that they enforce on the rest of the community. Just because you have a mod badge doesn't mean you should be able to break the rules and self-verify. This is especially true when they can't even verify properly. I'm not going to name names, but I know of at least one instance in which a game's moderator self-verified a WR they got in their game, and they didn't even accurately time it.

In short, if you regularly self-verify when there are others to do it for you, you are setting a bad example and should be stripped of your position.

Finally, on run rejection reasons: Lack of onscreen timer should NOT be grounds for run rejection. Speedrunning has existed for far longer than Wsplit/Livesplit, and the only thing the split timer is there for is for the runner and audience to have a headsup display tracking the run's progress. The split timer is NOT the objective measure of the run itself, or of how long the run is. This is self-evident when you consider that runs are commonly retimed due to inaccurate splitting. If you reject a run just because there's no split timer, then you are again setting a very poor example and need to get your act together.

tl;dr stop being bad at moderation, and be the leader your community deserves.

Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae and xDrHellxxDrHellx like this. 
  Ya-GGYa-GG

Above the fact that videos can support 99% of any rank attempted (cheating or missing the required conditions are the last %), they have another main role : Helping any game by adding more visibility.

When you post a run video, you first give to the community a proof about why you can claim for the rank you deserve. But you also provide resources about how the game is done quickly, old and new strats to improve the speedrunning of it.

A leaderboard with a big lack of videos is a very clueless issue for anyone who's interested in starting speedrunning it, and that obviously doesn't help its community to increase.

I have no reason to interfere in any way if this is the vision you have of this game as mod. But it's disappointing.

And being mod is not about wearing a medal of honor & trust, it's about taking responsability to carry a game for a while.

kobepilgrimkobepilgrim, Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae and 3 others like this. 
  LivLiv

No video of your world record run = it isn't a world record.
No video of your run submission = what is it even doing on a leaderboard here?

If you're putting any run in first place without video evidence, you're doing moderation wrong. Whether you're trusted in any community doesn't matter and is irrelevant to begin with.

Get OBS. Get a cheap $20 capture card. Most consoles besides the Xbox One and PS4 accept composite, for either of the aforementioned you can stream to Twitch/YT using their on-board streaming app. It's not hard.

Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae likes this. 
  CrroolCrrool

Having disproven several fraudulant runners in the past (including dylan who responded earlier) I feel like I should share my 2 cents on the matter.

Providing video evidence nowaways is as easy as one can expect it to get. Nowadays all you need is a regular mobile phone of sorts and most will have a camera of sorts on it. Im not even talking about a capture card or anything, 99% of phones can do this to some extend. From there its not a big leap to upload this recording to youtube and provide this with the video.

That being said, the very fact that video evidence isnt required across every speedrun out there is something that bothers me. On a lot of games it is still too easy to get a run verified without a video. Sure, if the run was done during some marathon or tournament that tons of people watched (and for some really weird reasons wherent highlighted) exceptions can be made, but they should be rare or even virtually non-existent.

People work hard on getting their times on the board and its fine to not have video proof, but at that point you also shouldnt submit. You can speedrun for the fun of speedrunning even without getting a time on a leaderboard, but if you want your times out there, get a phone and record it (at worst).

Ive tried making a case of this before, and I will keep doing so untill video is just manditory across the board. In the 1 1/2 year I've been speedrunning I've managed to find too many frauds that just pull the good name of speedrunning through the dirt.

Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae, DelnDeln and zewingzewing like this. 
  zewingzewing

A simple solution to this would be a "proof request." Would be a neat feature to add one day in the event we see unsettling stuff such as....people having suspicious times or people who shouldn't get a certain time due to skill (you get the picture).

Alternately, there SHOULD be a mandatory video requirement on this site if it were up to me. Most games give users a "times under XX:XX must require video proof," but that's only for games with many runners. Games with little to no runners generally have more lax rules.

That's my opinion on the whole thing.

AS for the lazy proof aspect, just don't submit if you aren't going to care enough to build credibility for your game community.

Aureus_LunaeAureus_Lunae likes this.