Forums  /  Momodora series  /  Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight  /  New rule consideration regarding binding multiple in-game inputs to a single input
  halfcoordinatedhalfcoordinated

A technique currently used by one or more players edits the config file to set roll and jump to a single keyboard input, then both keyboard and controller are used to play. This allows for full range of movement with the added advantage of 100% consistent rolljumps. This cannot be set through in-game menus. It gives a significant advantage over other configurations by eliminating all risk involved in the rolljump technique and allows a moderate increase in speed in a few sections from faster rolljump cancels being consistently possible. This could result in times being obtained that are not possible otherwise.

Most communities where this could present an advantage ban mapping multiple actions to a single input unless it is possible to do so in-game, as it blurs the line between human capabilities and TAS.

The rule would read "Binding multiple in-game inputs to a single input is banned" to cover any other methods of doing this and future discoveries of this sort outside of rolljumps. Runs known to have used this will have a comment added on the leaderboard that a now banned input method was used and the runner will be allowed 3-4 months to replace their run.

Please respond to this thread stating if you believe this new rule should be added, along with any thoughts and concerns you may have regarding it.

UrabemiUrabemi, MangoMangoMangoMango and 3 others like this. 
  MetallamaMetallama

the sounds like something i'd call tas, or at the least binding 2 actions to one key. in dustforce, we don't allow the 2 buttons for a dashjump to one key. i would want to ban that.

 
  AllTheHighwindsAllTheHighwinds

Yeah consensus would state that would be an outside third party advantage thus making it similar to TAS or a turbo button like category. I'm all for that rule to be implemented.

 
  DualshockDualshock

I agree with the change as well with the same reasoning

 
  NaconNacon

Agreed, this rule makes the game all the more interesting as a speedrun game.

 
  draculanterndraculantern

Hit the nail on the head, half. If there was a way in-game to bind multiple inputs to the same key there would be no problem. But considering the fact that you need to modify a game file to circumvent this restriction, this is no different than using a script.

As for the leaderboards, I don't think its fair to me or any of the other runners (who don't use this script) to have our times be compared to people who do use a script under the same category. But rather than flat out removing their runs, I think it would be better to separate them into 2 different categories "Any%" and "Any% with script". That seems fairest to everyone.

 
  HaileyHailey

Agreed. Macros are banned in most places, why is here different?

 
  M1_AccountM1_Account

This is done through the config.ini file, isn't it? If so, I wouldn't equate it to a TAS or a third-party advantage, as any changes within that file are intended to be possible, and can be made without being labeled as cheats or something. Such configuration changes aren't uncommon among PC games. My main game for a long time, System Shock 2, is an example where we can make all sorts of changes in the config files, although it might not be the best example since none of them inherently give speed advantages. But we can make changes not possible in the in-game menu, like further refining our mouse sensitivity, customizing the HUD, stuff like that. But anyway, I'm not putting this forth as an argument for allowing this rolljump thing, I'm just putting it out there for the sake of consistent arguments.

I still think, since it's something that so directly affects play, it should be judged on its own, and not just based on precedents set by other PC games, or the particular aspects of the file that needs to be edited. That being the case, I'm all for not allowing the script (or, correctly labeling when people are using it). I think being able to consistently rolljump with two buttons is a valid skill to be put to the test, and a cool one. It adds to the fun of the run, in my opinion.

For the sake of "disclosure" or to show my bias or whatever, I personally use two buttons as intended and can rolljump very consistently.

 
  MetallamaMetallama

@draca I dunno if making 2 categories for the script would be most efficient. I don't know if this is wide spread atm tho. I feel like having to do that for all the leaderboards would be a nightmare.

 
  draculanterndraculantern

that's true @Metallama, but i don't like the idea of my times being compared to those using this exploit (even if there is a note). But at the same time, it would also be unfair to completely undo the effort those people did put into the game before there was this rule in-place

 
  MetallamaMetallama

i get that. i guess that's what half was trying to balance the "tas" stuff and the effort they put in. if the runner is still active that is

 
  halfcoordinatedhalfcoordinated

Yes my suggestion was to add that note to the run, and if no replacement run is submitted in the following few months it would then be removed entirely.

I understand not wanting the comparison to be there, or the argument for a scripted category, but as far as I have noticed this is not very widespread in use. As such I'm not sure a new category is warranted.

 
  Ya-GGYa-GG

Well, I guess most of the main arguments against this have been said in the previous posts, so I prefer bring a new point to the table.

For easy, normal and hard categories, the trick just represents a minor time advantage, because even if you miss your rolljump, you still can afford some damages before dying (except spikes).

However, that's a huge different case for Insane, where everything is able to ruin your run if you're hit only once. Running on Insane means that you have to learn the game with the fear that missing any major rolljump will just lead you to death and reset. So most of the Insane runners just have to deal with it, using what the game provides, and no other choice than getting used to rolljump during hours until it works and becomes kinda consistent.

So I'm pretty sure that at least, this trick has no reason to be allowed on Insane category.

 
  MangoMangoMangoMango

I feel doing this is akin to using GRebind to do the same thing in a game where this isn't possible.

I'm not sure what other communities say about no-intro changes in config files or removing fps caps; Things that might not be available in-game, but given that this is such a vital mechanic in the game, I have to compare this to the jump exploit in Super Meat Boy. You can jump within like 10 frames before opening the menu, ostensibly re-triggering the jump every frame after closing the menu. This allows you to jump any time you hit the ground or a wall. This is doable in the game.

That said, I can't approve of this technique.

 
  LunaArgenteusLunaArgenteus

I'd like to voice some concerns about potential misconceptions people may have about the technique and the implications of banning it.

First off, I'll reiterate what halfcoordinated said and point out that it's an edit to the config.ini file that's included with the game; there are no third party programs or anything that are required to do this.

Secondly, I'd like to dispel a misconception that using this edit allows you to go any faster than what's humanly possible. What halfcoordinated is referring to as a "moderate increase in speed in a few sections" is the ability to cancel your rolljumps early by attacking, resulting in you only moving upwards by the height of a shorthop. All that's required to do this is to quickly press the attack button after starting a rolljump.

In that sense, playing on a controller is strictly inferior to playing on keyboard or some combination of keyboard and controller because without being able to rebind controller controls freely on controller, you'll find it very difficult to execute this for even a small amount of time without injuring your hands. Not so on keyboard or keyboard + controller. Again though, this is perfectly possible without config edits and other than consistency issues there is absolutely NO SPEED INCREASE to be had for using the config edit.

I don't want to see this turn into a pay-to-win scenario where people with high end mechanical keyboards are at a significant advantage. Ultimately though, the biggest reason why I'm against this ban at the moment is that one of the tenets of a fair rule is that it has to be both discrete and enforceable. Certainly the ban would be discrete, but as there's currently no way to accurately detect it, it doesn't seem very enforceable. I'm strongly against making a rule that's going to generate suspicion towards people who are submitting perfectly valid runs.

 
  FlaneFlane

I personally like the idea of the ban if we can find a way to enforce it. I have to agree with Luna though with the fact that it seems like it'll be very difficult to tell if someone does.

 
  M1_AccountM1_Account

While I still like not allowing it, I agree with most of what Luna said. Particularly, I really don't get the comparisons to using third-party programs or scripts.

 
  Ya-GGYa-GG

But that's basically because the consistency becomes 100% without real effort that this is representing a problem. If this is perfectly possible without config edits, why does it appear in the first place on serious runs ? Only because the usual way is not comfortable ?

You're right Luna, there is no solution for the moment to detect it, and maybe this will lead to have more suspicion on perfects runs. And perhaps this might need webcam, keyboard or controller devices on stream (Nohboard, Gamepad Viewer...) to show it clearly that each ability is separated from others.

And the superiority of keyboards on some games is not something new for 2D games : Dustforce, Cave Story, Super Meat Boy... So I'm not very surprised if in the future, keyboard wins on leaderboard.

 
  LunaArgenteusLunaArgenteus

I'm not denying that rolljump consistency becomes 100% with the config edit, though I'm also not entirely sure what you're asking. Comfort is great, and certainly not having to strain your hands is great, but I already explained the difference between what's possible and what's strenuous (quick rolljump cancels are only strenuous on controller).

As for the issue of "real effort" I suppose part of what this comes down to is how much people want the run to revolve around pressing two buttons simultaneously. Is that more important than creatively moving through rooms and fighting bosses?

It seems silly to me to require runners to use hardware they might not own or third party software and services just to prevent the use of a trick that doesn't require anything third party to use. It's not necessarily a bad idea though.

 
  Ya-GGYa-GG

As I said earlier, I'm talking since the beginning about refusing this consistent rolljump on Insane. And precisely on Insane, there is no such thing like importance of 1 setup above another. In my point of view, they all are on the same level, because if you miss any major move, it's generally death, whatever you're doing : moving to another room, fighting a boss, dodging ennemies... I'm not qualified enough to state the same for other difficulties.