Forums  /  Kingdom Hearts  /  Discussion about Timers on videos
  PunchyPunchy

I have nothing to add other than the timer rule is really silly and bad and I can't think of a reason for its existence at all other than entrusting the burden of proper timing to the runner, which isn't how the moderation dynamic is supposed to work.

Sly1020Sly1020 likes this. 
  RebelWattRebelWatt

First, it has been added as a rule. Second, it is the person's video so therefore it is there responsibility. It isnt hard to add a timer after a vod is made. At that point, it is just people being lazy who dont want to do it. It's a rule to help make LB mods job easier. I dont see why this is such a big deal for people. You people treat LB mods like dogs and that they are here to just serve you. Why is it so hard to meet them halfway? If you dont put a timer on your video then it would take much longer to verify runs, yet if LB mods take too long to verify a run, then you complain about that. To make things easier for everyone, it is just logical to have a timer be required in a community that is this large and that has as many daily submissions as it does. If it is your video, then it should be your responsibility. Saying it is their "job" to do this is ignorant because it is not their job to hold everybody's hand and walk them through how to submit runs. If you dont want to have a timer on your video, then you can simple not submit. Speedrunning is a hobby, and the LBs is the competitive part of speedrunning.

tldr: It is your run, your responsibility and it makes it easier for mods to verify runs. If you are too lazy to add a timer to the end of you vod, then dont submit. Speedrunning is a hobby. LBs is the competitive side to it. There is a difference.

Sonicshadowsilver2Sonicshadowsilver2 and Ninten866Ninten866 like this. 
  Ninten866Ninten866

In reply to Sly,

The rule requiring a timer to be on video was added to the rules of KH categories a bit over 2 days ago. As far as abolishing it, retiming a video of your PB isn't much to ask for from a runner. It doesn't take much time to retime your run. Your speedrun and your submission is your responsibility.

neraigoneraigo likes this. 
  PunchyPunchy

"Second, it is the person's video so therefore it is there responsibility."

Not really, no. The entire point of having moderators is to verify and double check and be the bookkeepers of this shit. That's what the job position entails, that's what that is. If you're entrusting that to the runners, you might as well disable verification entirely and just trust people. Nobody wants that, so no, that's absurd.

"At that point, it is just people being lazy who dont want to do it."

No, it's laziness on the part of the leaderboard mods being unwilling to time it. That's the point of having responsibility. It's extra work, it's a job. If you don't want to do it, that's fine, find someone who does. There's plenty of willing people.

"It's a rule to help make LB mods job easier."

It /helps/, but it shouldn't be an outright necessity. A run is a run, it doesn't need a timer to be valid. If you're unwilling to take on the extra work, why moderate a video game? This is also the only leaderboard I've found with this rule. Bigger games manage just fine, ya'll can keep up, I believe in you.

"You people treat LB mods like dogs and that they are here to just serve you. Why is it so hard to meet them halfway?"

Because this is dumb special snowflake bullshit that no other speedgame in existence exhibits including ones way bigger than this.

" If you dont put a timer on your video then it would take much longer to verify runs"

Take on more mods. WILLING mods. About three quarters of the mods don't really verify runs and you can prove this by looking at the moderator activity spreadsheet on The Site forum. If you're overwhelmed, you need to take on more staff, you don't dumb down the process.

"Saying it is their "job" to do this is ignorant because it is not their job to hold everybody's hand and walk them through how to submit runs."

It IS their job to verify runs and make sure they're accurately timed though. That's literally what the position entails. This rule foists it off onto the runners.

This is bad because runners are fuckups and make mistakes all the time with this stuff, so you moderate and fix it, so you might as well drop the rule. You're going to have to do the work anyway unless you like timings being off by errant seconds every run or so.

P.S Passive aggressive tweets on twitter do no solve problems. Do not be a bitch.

 
  JHobzJHobz

The timer rule is not only to make our lives easier, that is just a benefit of it. It is to help detect and deter cheating as well. It also allows us to accept videos that were split into multiple parts due to numerous reasons including (but not limited to):
- Internet hiccups
- Complete internet failures (crash)
- Twitch VOD archiving issues
- Getting quality options mid-run which splits Twitch VODs (this may no longer happen with recent changes, I'm not certain, but used to be VERY frequent)
- Computer freezes/crashes

Without an on-screen timer, we have zero way of retiming any of these videos. We've had this rule in effect ever since the Google Docs days because we have numerous community members who suffer from poor internet connections and would still like to be able to be inclusive towards them. We can't simply say "well why don't you just local record" either, because some runners' computers aren't powerful enough to stream and local record.

Since there are a few misconceptions... again...
Things mods do, despite the existence of a timer on screen:
- Check that every run is accurately timed
- Fix timing of runs that are not accurately timed, but still complete the run correctly (e.g. split early/late)
- Take on new mods (2017 has already seen 3 new mods)
- Time runs that we're uncertain of (that's right, we still do completely retime entire runs sometimes)
- Spot check every run for issues (i.e. check for cheating, rule-breaking, etc.)
- Fix old runs when informed of mistakes
- Work with runners who don't know how to time their run to help them set it up
- A million other things

We probably receive about 10 run submissions a day on average, each of which can be anywhere from 25 minutes to 11 hours long. Most mods who don't verify runs often are that way because they have full-time jobs and still try to stream and have fun speedrunning as well. Hell, sometimes it's just because a few mods are quick on the draw and catch a lot of the runs, because they're awesome people. Every mod helps out by participating in discussions, fixing the boards, or one of the other various tasks we do pretty frequently.

TL/DR: The fact that it makes mods lives a little easier is simply a bonus, not the be-all-end-all deciding factor.

FayeLilacFayeLilac, BranToast75BranToast75 and 8 others like this. 
  PunchyPunchy

"It also allows us to accept videos that were split into multiple parts due to numerous reasons including (but not limited to): "

Gameplay being missing for any of those reasons actually sounds like a pretty good reason for a flat reject rather than burdening the entire process with a weird timer rule.

This would be how like, just about every other leaderboard on the entire website does it.

"We've had this rule in effect ever since the Google Docs days because we have numerous community members who suffer from poor internet connections and would still like to be able to be inclusive towards them. "

let's be real here, this is basically just sonic

On a fundamental level though, this is way less of a problem now than it might've been ages ago. Connections generally have just gotten faster and better and more consistent for people. It's not much of an issue now and is going to be less of an issue as time continues to pass. Most other leaderboards adapted accordingly with a new technology standard. KH hasn't. I don't agree with the reasoning why at all.

"We can't simply say "well why don't you just local record" either, because some runners' computers aren't powerful enough to stream and local record. "

Actually, you totally can? Most leaderboards do, actually for much the same reasons I just outlined above. Computers have gotten better, it's a fairly safe assumption for like 99% of people they're going to have a computer that can pull it off.

I dunno why KH is seemingly the only one willing to handicap the process for the sake of accepting runs with missing gameplay or exceptionally dodgy quality. That seems like a step /backwards/, not forwards.

It's 2017, man. We ain't on google docs anymore. We got computers and internet connections that can handle this shit.

 
  PunchyPunchy

"Sonic is not the only member of this community who suffers from poor Internet and it pisses me the fuck off you would insinuate that as if we baby him or something."

Joke. Apparently in poor taste, so I apologise. But I still stand by what I said about it. I don't think it should be moderation's responsibility for other people's technical issues. That may have been acceptable a few years ago, but not so much anymore. And just about every other game reflects this shift.

" the only people who actually complain about the timer rule we've had in place for years are people outside of the community."

I am not outside the community, I've just been quiet for a really long time lol.

Seriously though, this happens because it's only KH that has this rule and it occasionally takes someone with a broader perspective to sanity check some of this stuff. Games are different, but that's also no reason to turn a blind eye to the standards of your peers.

"What we are doing here with our LBs works for us."

This is a cop out. You can always do better.

"It hasn't discouraged any new runners either. "

I can tell you this is bullshit because it literally discouraged me when I was trying learn the route for Ventus Critical by taking notes off the WR as I usually do for a new speedgame and had difficulty because 30 fucking minutes were missing from the world record.

I persevered regardless, but it was off-putting. I can tell you that I felt put off by the sloppiness. People who are put off or discouraged will likely never speak about it, which makes it difficult to gauge. It's not really a strong argument because it's a silent thing.

"So fuck right off with your high and mighty condescending attitude about how we should run our LBs. "

Chill.

"but I don't complain about it because I understand why it's in place and realize that Im in the minority in disagreeing with it within the community"

Or, you could make the argument like I'm currently trying to do? The entire point of discussion is to share ideas.

Gonna back this up a bit because I want to reply to this:

"- Take on new mods (2017 has already seen 3 new mods) "

One, I think. Just Ninten. Dax and BB were added as global mods but not to any individual games so they can't actually verify anything?

TheNannerpuss12TheNannerpuss12 likes this. 
  JHobzJHobz

Dax, BB, and Ninten were all added with the intention of same rights. If they can't verify runs, this is news to me and something any of the other mods would happily fix for them. None have brought it up as an issue to the other mods though, which leads me to believe it works fine for them.

To your "computers have gotten more powerful" argument: I recently built a new computer because my previous computer (that I built for $1000 in 2013) couldn't support streaming and locally recording at the same time. I built a new one because I have the means to do so; not everyone is so lucky.

Requiring videos at all was something we did with a lot of caution to ensure it wouldn't exclude runners. We are not willing to exclude people simply because their ISP drops their connection at random sometimes (as an example, I have 50mbps down/up and even my connection drops pretty frequently in the evenings). Not all parts of the world have increased their services at the same rate. Internet service packages in my town have not changed in the last 5 years, for example, which is far longer than the KH leaderboards have lived on SRDC.

Lastly, just because another game does things one way doesn't mean we have to. Feel free to run those games if you disagree with the simple necessity of a timer on screen. Feel free to run this one if you add a timer. Different rules work for different communities. We're not going to allow turbo button, for example, just because some games do.

DutchpotatoDutchpotato and TimmiluvsTimmiluvs like this. 
  JHobzJHobz

One last note: the first sub 3 in KH2FM wouldn't be allowed under your ruleset, which I'm sure would be disagreed with by a large number of people.

 
  PunchyPunchy

"Feel free to run those games if you disagree with the simple necessity of a timer on screen."

I would like to point out this is incompatible with TImmi's argument about it not putting people off.

"couldn't support streaming and locally recording at the same time."

Yeah, but it's a leaderboard, not a Twitch-integrated platform. If people can't stream and local record at the same time, you accept that just streaming is a risk when you run because if your internet dies you might lose a chunk of the run and make it invalid. Or, you don't stream and just local record. I dunno why it has to be both.

"Lastly, just because another game does things one way doesn't mean we have to. "

Not just "another game", like 90% of all other games.

"the first sub 3 in KH2FM wouldn't be allowed under your ruleset, which I'm sure would be disagreed with by a large number of people."

¤the run that is also done by a mod¤

Thinking emoji.

 
  PunchyPunchy

"Ninten's run being accepted has nothing to do with him being a mod."

I mean, not currently. The rules were like that before and after he got added. But far be it from me to suggest a reason for the reluctance to change in this regard is because it would have a substantial effect on the runs of a couple of the existing moderators?

I'm not instantly calling bias or that this is the WHOLE REASON KH MODS ARE CORRUPT BLARGH as so many other fuckwits do. But I can't overlook that as a potential factor. It's something that will inevitably be considered.

"Again, kindly, go fuck yourself and your shitty insinuations about our community."

Dude, seriously. Relax. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't care and just hated all of you.

 
  JHobzJHobz

We seem to be going in circles here now. You have made your arguments and they are taken under advisement. Currently, there does not seem to be enough support to change the current requirements, but things are of course always open to change based on what the community vocalizes.

 
  GxmwpGxmwp

Succinct I'm curious to know why you and some other members aren't too keen on the idea of having on screen timers? You said it puts the burden of proper timing on the runner, but isn't it more than likely that (correct me if I'm wrong) when the mods look at the submitted video they're probably making sure you've submitted the right end split? In case, as you said, you splitted wrong and the moment you paused the timer is different from your actual time. It's not like it's uncommon for people to split late by accident and, if anything, it would be causing you more problems than them. I assume the timers are also a big help for them on longer runs. Such as KH1 and 2 runs.

I do agree though that it's probably not the best to accept runs with large gaps between them. I know it's probably not the best to expect the worst from people, but there's always a possibility something fishy is actually going on. It more than likely wouldn't happen with a active, well known member, however, can you really say you'd accept a run with a bunch of large gaps from say a random guy you don't know? I don't want to sound harsh, but if the gaps adds up to minutes of missing gameplay then it's probably best not to accept it.

That's just my shitty two cents. Time to crawl back into my hole.

Ninten866Ninten866 likes this. 
  DutchpotatoDutchpotato

Succinct the idea that other leaderboards do it one way so all leaderboards should do it this way is an incredibly flawed mind set, especially towards the KH leaderboards. Because while yes the Mario and Zelda and many more games do have bigger communities, very few of those larger communities consist of games that on average take 3+ hours for just a basic any% run like many of the KH games do.

As for the actual topic, If a runner cares so little about their own run that they can't even be bothered to put even a basic timer on their run, then I don't see why a mod should have dedicate their own time towards verifying the run.

Even if you want to make the argument that "it's their job and they should just do it anyway" a good employee doesn't waste their time dealing with tedious busy work, when they could be dedicating that same time towards dealing with more important things.

BranToast75BranToast75 likes this. 
  BranToast75BranToast75

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in, i quit reading the last half of the posts, too long for a subject that shouldnt even be an issue.

If you are gonna do something do it right. And if you dont want to do it right, dont expect people to do it for you instead. Adding a timer is not hard, why should someone else do your job for you because you dont want to put any effort in.

Doing a traditional stream/recording, add the timer to the stream.

Doing a ps4 stream, download the vod/youtube vid and add the timer in an editing program.

Quit being lazy and put just a tiny bit of effort into your hobby, god forbid you have to do something other than just playing the game.

Jesus

Ninten866Ninten866 and DutchpotatoDutchpotato like this. 
  PunchyPunchy

"Succinct I'm curious to know why you and some other members aren't too keen on the idea of having on screen timers?"

Because I moderate a bunch of really active games and in my experience runners are huge fuckups and make timing mistakes literally all the time that I then wind up having to fix, so relying on the runner and their timer (people are idiots and pause timers all the time) to keep the timing consistent if footage is missing is a /huge/ gamble. A gamble that honestly I don't think is worth taking when the end result is accepting runs that would be below verification standards for just about any other game.

Plus I just dislike forcing people to put crap that isn't Video Game on their video. That's a broad aesthetic preference but I dislike it when forced on people via LB rules.

Additionally, going back to the Ven Crit thing where the video was missing 30 minutes in the past but verified because of the rule. This makes it super difficult for new runners to learn off the videos. I got RebelDragon95 to sit in a fucking teamspeak and verbally tutor me over the medium of voice to learn the run instead of just taking bloomin notes of the WR like anyone with sense would do. This is a constant recurring issue to varying degrees across a bunch of games. It's just kinda sloppy?

"Succinct the idea that other leaderboards do it one way so all leaderboards should do it this way is an incredibly flawed mind set"

Usually yes. But we're talking about like, nearly every single other leaderboard. Almost all of them. KH is the only game I have /ever/ seen with this rule.

It stands to some semblance of reason that if literally every other speedrun community is doing it a different way and their runs are generally in one piece, there might be some merit in their approach. Doing things because other people do them is bad, but ignoring what everyone else is doing because "This is Kingdom Hearts we do it our way" is just as bad and possibly worse.

" If a runner cares so little about their own run that they can't even be bothered to put even a basic timer on their run"

Some people (like me, as it happens), generally prefer having just a clean game feed and nothing else where possible so the video can be in the best quality and occupy as much of the video player as possible. I.e All of it. It's not laziness or "not caring", it's actually about the precise opposite.

"then I don't see why a mod should have dedicate their own time towards verifying the run."

because the video game is still all there and present and this is the entire point of having moderators in the first place? Why should any mod dedicate their own time? Because...they volunteered to? This argument is super nonsense, man.

DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ likes this. 
  DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ

honestly if the game is complete in 1 sitting
there shouldnt be a rule in adding in a timer

 
  RebelDragon95RebelDragon95

I have spoken to Toji about this in the past in regards to DDD HD and the timer rule. He said you guys discussed it and agreed to keep the rule as it stands.

I originally spoke to toji in regards to this because I saw a couple of people trying extremely specific and complicated stream setups to prevent having to restream every single run for PS4 streamed runs specifically, i.e. streaming to another stream service then capturing the stream feed to stream it to twitch so they can have a timer on screen.

This is what first led me to think that the "timer being required" rule was being intrusive upon peoples enjoyment on speedrunning. I can understand having it for a moderation point of view to require a timer on screen but isn't it a mods job to validate every run that is submitted regardless of timer being on screen or not. Just to clarify by "validation" I mean checking the start and end points of a run then maybe a few random points in the run for consistency sake to ensure the run is valid possibly even retiming a run if you feel it necessary due to video quality or you feel that it was timed incorrectly. If that's too much to ask of the people who are meant to run the leaderboard then why are you a mod? No malice is meant by this just pointing out if you are not willing to go the extra mile why did you even want to be a mod.

I do agree with Succinct with the rule being unneeded and stupid but I do fully understand why its there from the mods point of view, to make your life's easier, but I have only seen this rule in this and ONLY this community. Take the Ratchet and Clank guys in regards to Ratchet and Clank (PS4) most of the runs that have ever existed and some current runs are straight PS4 streamed runs with no timer on screen and they don't seem to have an issue with it. If they don't why do we? If its to make your life easier why not split mods up into specific groups to deal with specific groups of games, such as say Jhobz and Sonic deal with KH1 (all versions) this week then maybe say BBS (all versions) the next week, to split the workload if it becomes overwhelming.

That's my take on the subject. I know the Ratchet and Clank guys are a different community but if they can function with their rules like that why can't we? Just a small question I'd like answered in regards to this.

DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ and PunchyPunchy like this. 
  abandonthemyriadabandonthemyriad

I'm gonna throw in my (probably more than) 2 cents here.

So first off, I really don't get the hostility toward Punchy for having an opinion on this issue or any issue - as he mentioned, he tried to learn Ven Crit and had problems learning because 30 minutes of the WR run was missing (how is that legit? I trust sonic, for sure, but when 30 minutes are missing, literally ANYTHING could happen, and we're just taking a runner's word) - I saw multiple uses of the term "fuck right off" and its variants, coming from people who behave like they're close to moderators of the community or are moderators. Of course, the runner in question deleted his posts now so I can't screenshot them, but Punchy quoted him in his post.

That being aside (and honestly being another issue - no matter where the forum of discussion, if someone dares challenge the power structure of the community, DRAMA), I definitely see both sides of the issue on this. I think timers SHOULD be used, but not required - Rebel raised the very fair point of streaming from PS4, for example, and I've seen people raise the issue of internet issues, and these points come from people on alternate sides of issues. So - you're concerned about people having issues with streaming from their internet, but if they're PS4 runners, you basically want them to stream twice? Because in the case of Sonic, and probably a handful of other runners or potential runners, capture cards are an issue (or their interaction with their computers), so they can't stream their run in real time with a timer, and have to restream it with a timer - this seems a little unfair to people in the situation of bad internet AND no capture card, since internet data caps DO exist, and going beyond those caps is ridiculously expensive (again, another issue, here unrelated to KH).

Since mods already check the length of the run and will go in and verify that the timer stops at the right moment, aren't they already basically doing the work of the timer - they check to make sure the timer starts where it should and stops where it should. They adjust times for BBS runners who start the run on the title screen. It's not too hard to look at the video timestamp for the beginning and for the end and say "oh, this run took 2 hours, 17 minutes, and 35 seconds" or something. Sure, it might be a little more work, but as Punchy raised already - we don't have that many mods who are actively verifying runs. It wouldn't be too hard to do what Rebel suggested and have mods on teams doing things. Sure, it's not your job (in the sense that you're not being paid to moderate), but if you've volunteered to be a mod (since nobody is forced to moderate), you should be willing to offer your time in contribution to the leaderboard moderation team beyond making a few smart forum posts now and then. Hobz raised the point of some mods having jobs and wanting time to do runs as well - if they're too busy to moderate, then why are they a mod in the first place? Legacy? That seems really unfair when I've heard several people say "I'd be glad to help the mod team", myself included, who would be willing to do the work, but we've got mods who won't do the work because they just want to do runs - especially when I heard from BTrue that the job of reviewing runs REALLY isn't that taxing - he said that while he was mod, the job was basically to check that the run started and stopped in the right place and check a few random spots to make sure nothing sketchy was going on. That sounds like it's at most a 5 minute process. Sure, the timer makes it a bit more streamlined, but it still seems like the mods do the job of the timer at the same time.

Sorry that went off on a bit of a tangent, partly because I only have the time to make one forum post in response to two or three issues, but it really seems inane to argue that the timer is a requirement, especially when many many other communities have gotten by without that rule. Someone argued that those communities don't have 3+ hour runs to verify - that's true, but irrelevant if the system BTrue described to me is actually the case for what most mods do (and that would make sense considering that Ninten and Sonic have verified most of the runs I've seen submitted, and there's just not enough time in a day to watch that many runs between only two people). Do I think the timer should be recommended? Yes. Should it, perhaps, be required on emulator runs for games where emulator is allowed? Definitely. But should people be rejected simply because the mods don't want to check a run that doesn't have a timer and don't want to do the math on those runs? No. That's just laziness on the side of the mods.

That's my take on the discussions that have been going on. Despite being blunt in my writing here, believe me that I don't have any ill will toward any of the mods, especially not on a personal level. It feels ridiculous that I have to say this, but I really do appreciate the work you guys have done for the community. But I can also see where things can improve - sure, we get by with our rules, but why not make the community and the rules better? Perhaps that's why you've seen me so vocal on twitter and the forum posts in the past. It's just a tad disheartening to see mods and bigger names throw aside anyone who raises dissent because "you're passive-aggressively starting drama". Most of the time, if you take the time to consider suggestions that are made, even on more public forums, things could actually improve.

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