Hey all (again).

Reloaded was approved, so feel free to make a thread suggesting categories there (or here) and I'll try my best to accommodate.

Alright, submitted a board for it. :)

I assume there will be no problems, so before it's approved, I'm definitely open to suggestions as to what kind of categories people would like. I've played through since posting this the Reloaded version and noticed the new stage/enemies/power-ups like laser, and in general, different mechanics like the lasso from the SNES version not freezing enemies completely, etc.

Alright. I'll submit a new board for it right now since it looks like there's a bit of demand for it and that makes me happy, since I still think it should be under a new board instead of an extension of the old one given the changes, and we could figure out new categories for the new characters/difficulties and set it up that way.

Ah Lizard was one I wanted to check out.

You did a really cool job on this and the mechanics are very neat for a NES title. Was it hard to code?

Hey again,

I setup both categories.

Any other suggestions, let me know. :)

Hey, very much welcome, and very cool you found yourself here. :)

100% I'll listen to these suggestions, and actually I would have left a comment on the clearest video tomorrow when I had a bit more time to reach out to you to see if I could have added it to the leader board. It's neat so many homebrew developers are finding their way to speedrun (or even speedrun their own games). Another NES homebrew game I really liked was called Ralph 4, and pubby submitted his own time to that board. Nim and Nom is another neat one.

I'll add these two categories by tonight though and I agree, I would have used the in-game timer. It seemed accurate enough and even if it's not, it basically puts everyone on the same playing field if there's always an in-game timer to submit from once completing the game.

Ah, yeah, oddly I'm surprised it doesn't have it's own separate board. I'd encourage you to submit a new speedrun page for it, only because realistically as matthew wrote, the game is different in the sense that it has different characters/mechanics and 4 player support.

This game was always very underappreciated/obscure and not run much. D:

Not sure as to which game is faster, though. I do have it on Steam, never played through it yet though.

Alright, thanks guys. :) Sounds great.

Hey all.

What's the best way to practice this game? I'm interested in trying out the run. I assume just doing individual screens and intentionally dying?

Is there any mods available that allow you to practice certain sections without intentionally having to die at the very end of the screen?

Thanks in advance.

Made a Yokai Discord here:

https://discord.gg/Xf4EXkv

Free free to join it.

Ah wow, thanks for the answer, and there's quite a lot of diversity there.

I messed around and starting making save states for this because I'm very tempted by how it plays. For Goggles, "traps", is that like in act 2 on the first stage? I noticed running through the first stage, sometimes rocks fell on me in the 2nd stage, but sometimes it didn't. What constitutes as a "trap"?

This is a very unique/underrated game. Thanks for answering.

In terms of the speedrun - I see the route is built around collecting them, but what is their exact function?

Thanks for any answers. :)

[edit] Just saw the title. :)

Anyway, great work. I'd love to see races of this.

Based on how frame specific the input is, and I know this is late to the conversation anyway, but just seeing it from actual data, metronome in my opinion doesn't improve the chances much. There's still a very specific amount of frames and timing the input from reset/power on to end on 1 frame, which is 1/60th of a second, which in most cases you're trying to hit sandwiched between wrong spawns isn't super reliable. It's great in theory, but the RNG fluctuates too fast to make this humanly practical.

Whether they match perfectly, no idea, can't obviously test that to the frame on console.

One other note:

There's a bank (scumtron) pointed out where they pull the RNG value that fluctuates from, which is 4, 3, 2 and then 4.

So easy math: The RNG number that repeats itself has a 75% chance of giving you the bad technodrome spawn between 3/4 locations and obviously a 25% chance for the best technodrome spawn according to the route. I don't know how the RNG populates itself, other than it initializes on reset/power, but mapping that out individually through setting breakpoints would be awful.

In terms of frame 700 and pushing select there, followed by a start push:

700: 1st frame = 3rd spawn. 2nd frame = 3rd spawn. 3rd frame = 2nd spawn. 4th frame = 3rd spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn. 6th frame = 3rd spawn.

^ This is basically the only hope for TMNT at this point if you want to continue this visual route, but luck out substantially and hope there's a pocket of randomly generated frames like this that contain 2 spawns.

I kind of mentioned to red the other day, but if you guys have specific suggestions as to when to time it, I'll happily check the first 5-10 frames to see what kind of RNG the start button press produces. At this point, finding something reliable isn't impossible, but more so needle in haystack territory if you want to include a visual cue that you time to a specific frame from power on/reset.

@Redheaded_Peckerwood,

I have no clue sir. :D

[edit]:

A request/feedback:

Where on the start menu does it feel comfortable timing select + start? I'd like legitimate feedback on that because I don't run this game, but if something feels very comfortable with the demo mode to time, maybe I can start there and check out what kind of spawns it produces.

Also, I'll set a breakpoint later to the fluctuating RNG and freeze it, then check spawns 2/3/4 respectively and how it alters Bebop's behavior (if it even does). It would rule out that case if Bebop always had the same kind of AI then that his AI has to deal with where the technodrome spawns. If he has different AI between technodrome spawns and the same (frozen) RNG value, then maybe how he acts when you get there on a spawn 2 could be a visual indicator of spawn 2.

Otherwise Bebop's AI is probably determined by the RNG itself as it's the only real thing that fluctuates in stage 1 (minus Rocksteady, maybe? Not aware of how he spawns.) It boggles my mind that they would go to such a length to code this massive RNG-fest to overly complicate where the technodrome spawns and ONLY use it for the technodrome.

I've already expressed multiple times on stream and in general it's FCEUX, but I guess failed somehow to mention it here.

Anyway, FCEUX, and I think (assume) the frames match up on console.

One thing I checked (also scumtron pointed out) is you have a double buffer input window from power on. The first buffer input is immediate and perfect, the second requires tight timing. So basically, I wanted to check if you could (RTA) double buffer frame perfect two inputs to immediately go into the game from power on, what spawn you'd get, just in case it was that easy. Sadly, it's not.

You get techndrome spawning in 4. xD

But, in terms of the buffer window: you can power on, hold select and buffer into start by rolling your thumb from select to start. The window itself is very tight because otherwise the game expects/wants a start button press to register, but if you're fast enough you can double buffer (just hold start) into that window from the copyright screen and immediately start the game by buffering that input. Testing this buffering on console, it also produced spawn 4.

Alright, so this is nightmare fuel. I think this game just doesn't want people to run it. xD

Anyway, better checked out exact odds and I'll keep updating as I go along, but I checked other frames around Leonardo's sword and there's 2 in particular that are probably more important than before, as seen here:

https://imgur.com/a/3EjdNZi

As his sword is ascending pushing select on either of those frames (which is useful - because there's only 2 frames of animation) results in the first part of the technodrome being set to location 2. So, good news is you have 100% chance from this point. Bad news is the 2nd part which is the start button press, depending on the frame pressed I checked the first 6 frames is where the technodrome spawns in relation:

700: 1st frame = 3rd spawn. 2nd frame = 3rd spawn. 3rd frame = 2nd spawn. 4th frame = 3rd spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn. 6th frame = 3rd spawn.

701: 1st frame = 4th spawn. 2nd frame = 2nd spawn. 3rd frame = 3rd spawn. 4th frame = 2nd spawn. 5th frame = 2nd spawn. 6th frame = 3rd spawn.

So that's good (above) if you can time it on the 2nd frame of animation anyway.

Below is the other frames for reference:

705: 1st frame = 4th spawn. 2nd frame = 2nd spawn. 3rd frame = 3rd spawn. 4th frame = 2nd spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn.

706: 1st frame = 4th spawn. 2nd frame = 4th spawn. 3rd frame = 2nd spawn. 4th frame = 4th spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn.

@Chambers,

Maybe the lifebar tell is a thing, but I uploaded an unlisted video here and visually it's just too hard to tell to the human eye:

The first 3 frames after the health bar becomes red (frame by frame) show once the health bar is red, hitting the 2 spawn always initializes and counts up from the 2nd block which is missing. Coincidentally checking two of Skunky's runs yesterday where he hit the technodrome spawn on console (also checked on my AVS) the health bar loads in the same way. I'll check later if from a 3/4 spawning technodrome how the health bar fills up and if the 2nd block is missing.

The first section in that video is frame by frame what it looks like, as each health block stays on the screen for 2 frames. The second section is the video repeated in RTA/real time just to visually show how it loads, but again, I feel this goes by too quickly to see. Can anyone see anything?

@skunky,

Sadly, as I wrote in your chat a couple times yesterday, my internal knowledge of this game is limited just because I don't run this game (although with all the shit I keep testing out I can do the first split in about 1:40 now :D).

As I wrote also in your chat, it might be a good idea IF the health bar initializes this specific way upon hitting a good technodrome seed to re-route the beginning movement until you enter the first sewer in a very very consistent way, and line up what the health bar looks like upon entering the sewer. IF the health bar loads and it's always missing for example the 2nd block on the third frame after hitting the proper seed, walking to the sewer in a predictable way where say for example, the 7th health block is always missing (where as on spawns 3/4 it might be a different block) could be a visual tell 20 seconds in whether or not you hit the proper technodrome spawn.

I don't know visually what else could be used in the very beginning of the game because watching you run this yesterday, there isn't a lot of variation. Enemies (I checked) for sure spawn on the same pixel regardless of technodrome spawn, so there's no variation there.

Actual enemy spawns have less to do with RNG and more to do with a kill count or something it seems, so it probably isn't useful in any kind of visual tell, as for example your act 1 is obviously very clean and I never saw a toad miniboss once yesterday - only the chainsaw dude spawned. The spider/crawly things on the ceiling, where there's 3 before that mini boss fight, the third always jumped down a bit and the other 2 always did the same thing. So whether it's a combination of pace/global/kill count, I don't think there's anything there that relates to the technodrome being on a good seed as even on failed runs your act 1 looked the same.

• There IS variation in the AI of Bebop in that boss fight - but, why and what causes it? I have no idea.
• RNG happens with the boomerang guy right before the Rocksteady fight - again, why?
• Not sure what else in act 1 that I noticed?

Originally thought the health bar and how it filled up was based on the cycle you hit, but I think now it initializes the same as it functioned the same between console/emulator.

So, we look for other visuals corresponding with a successful input.

• Boss behavior?
• Enemy RNG?
• Enemy placement (probably isn't a thing - tested to see and enemies inside a room all spawn on the same pixel regardless of technodrome RNG.)
• ?

More information as I know it:

You have 3 frames of Leonardo's sword animation to hit the 2nd spawning technodrome, as seen here:

https://imgur.com/a/EGY7S9D

After that select input, the start input has to come 3 frames later.

The other bad animation gives you a 4 spawn.