Just to clarify, this is an acceptable technique that exploits the fact that host's in-game time is used for these boards, and not a game glitch per se (hence the glitchless label). Considering it requires coordination and has drawbacks (being downed), and that using it sometimes doesn't shave off extra time (during timers for example), tactical down slow-motion is tolerated. Similarly, mask-up slow-motion is also allowed since it's a one-time slow-mo that requires you to mask up near a guard.

WHAT IS BANNED (including in glitched category) is using the infinite slow-motion glitch, for many reasons:

• it has to be activated prior to the run, so technically this activation time should be taken in account
• it has basically no drawback and there's no timing to have. Host only has to never go down again for the glitch not to reset, which is particularly easy since...
• Enemy AI is affected by slow-motion and becomes brain-dead, so there no longer is any threat. It's basically playing god mode (and remember that the actual god mode glitch that used Kingpin was banned at the time, same for April's Fools ricochets).
• It is neither fun to run or watch

All of this could be fixed by using real time timers like for Crime Spree, but I personally wouldn't want to sacrifice interesting techniques.

As in 8:00 while it was going to be 9:00? In that case you rather should submit the correct(ed) time. Usually though, when there is such rollback in the runner's favor we keep it as is, for example if the timer stopped at 9:30 then switched to 9:15 and updated the PB screen to be 9:15 as well. Anyway real time can vouch for the actual value of the run.

Hey, we do not want to enforce a minimum frame rate rule and exclude low-end players from speedrunning Payday 2. However lagging purposefully your game using particles would be considered as a banned exploit because it can't be reproduced on all platforms and PC specs. Similarly, while down/mask-up slow-mo is allowed in glitchless runs, we've banned in the past an exploit that would put the host - and only the host - in a perpetual slow-motion state.

It seems pretty artificial to add a category to ILs that only would apply to a few of them (not to mention how painful it would be to do with the current leaderboard implementation). Same reason why I'm not personally fond of all loot category.

Haha, nice to see that you reused some of our ideas for the Payday 2 leaderboards. :D

The leaderboard rules seem fine so far. For Payday 2, due to the prominent use of mods and cheats, we decided to stay true to the strict speedrunning definition which is about running the original game without the help of third-party programs and such. BUT for a game where you can't restart a heist with a single click when playing multiplayer, it makes sense to allow using QoL mods that ease speedrunners' work, just like external timers.

There's something that bugs me though and that you should clarify, along with the community's opinion: what scope you want to give to these leaderboards. So far the main category is glitchless speedruns on Easy/Normal (or at least the difficulty the fastest objectives/easiest challenge). Those runs are the ones that show on the main page, then you have the logical solo/co-op distinction. What I find weird is that because any% isn't the main category (that will always feel awkward for me but I can understand that choice), I'd expect the leaderboards to be focused on challenge alla Payday 2 Tournament. Yet the main category also encourages running on the easiest setting.

This is what I want you to clarify along with the PDTH community: do you want leaderboards to be focused on pure speedrunning (any% easy) or challenge (glitchless OVK/OVK 145+)? Then choose the default subcategory accordingly. For Payday 2 we tried to find a compromise. Any% is the main subcategory (glitchless then botless when playing with bots started to grant huge time saves being secondary), but we also have any difficulty categories and highest difficulty categories. It originally was DW because it included many objective modifications that changed the heist length. MH and OD kinda ruined that balance because in terms of time saves all three difficulties are equivalent BUT OD and MH at launch featured some time saving glitches and some OD mechanics in general can be exploited in runs, and in terms of challenge MH is too similar to DW yet OD is far way harder. Hopefully we'll find a solution when game support ends. Anyway you get my point. I'm absolutely not forcing you whatsoever but I think that's something interesting to debate.

Regarding the shuffle subcategory, you also should either mention that it includes glitched runs, either that client disconnections do not void glitched runs. The latter seems more logical. If you already cleared that out in your previous posts, my mistake, I may have overlooked them.

Finally some nitpicking about SRC features. Shuffle category is pointless for solo runs as host can't disconnect to speed up a game. In order to remove it you have to edit current subcategory settings so that they only apply to co-op, then create new any% and glitchless subcategories (without shuffle) that only apply to solo. Depending on how many runs you'll have to edit afterwards, you can do it the other way around. Of course that means you'll have to manually edit each solo/co-op run to fit in the "new" subcategories, because SRC is not able to match subcategories that share the same name as far as I know. But anyway the sooner you do that, the fewer work you'll have to do. Creating the glitchless then botless subcategories for Payday 2 was a pain due to the sheer amount of runs we had to resubmit/edit, and especially due to duplicate runs. I haven't even finished to submit all botless runs for a few maps, and 2/3/4-player co-op subcategories aren't retroactive at all for now. Only Shuffle works because due to SRC's limitations it has effectively become a any% default subcategory. But right now editing DW and above categories for them to only show DW and OD difficulties when submitting a run (currently you're also able to set difficulty to Normal, Hard, etc. even though they're not valid difficulties for the category) would be downright impossible, as it would mean post-editing manually all OD runs.

Speaking of default subcategories, if you happen to change any% for it to become the main (default) category, you'll have to duplicate all glitchless runs into any% in case one of them is the overall WR, otherwise it wouldn't show up on the main page. Same thing for Shuffle for co-op, it would have to become the actual any%, that regroups glitchless runs where no one leaves, and glitched runs. You get my point.

I probably forgot some other points, but either way you're doing a great job, I wish you best of luck for moderating those leaderboards.

Issue has been fixed as of 158.1.

Hey guys,

It appears that update 158 broke Kingpin and removed the injector's cooldown, which means that as long as you don't forget to press your throwable key every 6s, you can have access to a legit god mode.

We've discussed this issue with Discord members, and so far we agreed about the following: Update 158 runs are allowed, BUT USING KINGPIN'S INJECTOR IS BANNED. Using Kingpin's injector will result in your run being rejected, and this rule will remain until the bug gets patched out.

Reasoning was the same as for why April's Fools 2017 update doesn't appear on the site: it breaks game balance to the point that using it totally removes challenge from runs and make them annoying to watch. Payday 2 runs have always been about speed, sure, but also performance - which is why Mayhem wasn't added to the DW+ category, and why a separate OD category is (for now) planned for the full leaderboards after game support drops. As such we decided to ban this issue that affected challenge, just like we banned in the past the infinite slow-motion glitch.

If you have any objection though, feel free to post them and we will consider them.

Salem

You cannot use mod_overrides, but modifying your config files is fine (as in editing renderer_settings.xml/following LowSpecGamer's guide).

Many moderators left after Crimefest 2015, and because they are super mods we can't remove them. The only active moderators at the moment are Cladall, MasterXdX and myself. RandomKenny also lurks leaderboards and verifies runs every once in a while.

I usually try to verify runs within 3 days, but don't consider it abnormal until it's been a week.

You can never be sure that he won't come back and haunt the Payday gang. :P

But more seriously, while we could possibly add this, I personally think it will be safer and look better if we add all contractors at once (when support ends). Which doesn't prevent you from running this as an unofficial category!

I'll assume everything has been answered and lock this thread, as it only concerns a specific submission.

Basically what Cladall said, from experience I can tell that your time would have been rounded up in crew stats.

About runs that don't show crew stats, we theoretically always should add 1 second to the timer but I'm generally pretty chill about that and only do this if rounding is obvious (or if it is a WR run).

Well sadly the game is filled with RNG so restarting is pretty much mandatory. And the easiest looking heists are often the ones with the most bullshit random events. Can't think of a consistent map at the moment, so multiplayer can usually mitigate RNG quite a bit. Maybe Meltdown, then again crowbar and vault locations are random and some are obviously better. Brooklyn 10-10 wouldn't be that bad either, if Charon and cops' AI was actually logical and consistent.

A lot of time has passed since this thread.

We eventually had two subcategories (any% and glitchless) at some point, though we recently changed glitchless to a simple boolean variable and replaced it with botless since as of Henchmen Update, bots' presence matters much more often than skips.

I'd also add that even if you fail your submission, as long as your run is valid, we will change missing/wrong info and move your run to the right place for you.

Just my two cents, but I don't think it's necessary considering stealth is already faster than loud in almost all hybrid heists, so it would be redundant with any% boards. And there is also a huge majority of heists that can only be played in loud.

It's not possible to keep Glitchless at the same time as other subcategories without doubling their amount. It will still exist as a variable that you can use to filter leaderboards.

I have to admit I forgot about consoles when I discussed with other moderators, from now on you'd better play without bots because your runs will be included in categories where PC players have a clear advantage over you (latest PC update made so bots can give you a 75% interaction speed boost, hence the urge of redesigning leaderboards). Hopefully Overkill will update console version soon enough, the upcoming Switch release should be a decent reason for it.

FAQ:

Q: What about having bots but without bot boosts? A: No distinction ATM between bots with or without boosts. It's a take-it or leave. Considering Overkill might add a feature like a no boosts for fewer spawns trade-off, I think this is the best way to do. We have to consider that they can grab bags too now. And bot or botless, with or without boosts, now it makes a difference (in solo).

Q: "Kicking is allowed if one player stands on the escape." About that, does it means that you can only kick/disconnect on the last day of the heist or at the end of any day? A: At the end of any day. That means that after your "kicking spree", the heist has to stop (with a successful outcome), that is done to avoid objectives being done with the bots that replace kicked players. If you kick regardless, the run then belongs to the "shuffle" subcategory.

Q: So all current runs would go to botless category? A: If you didn't use bots, yes.

http://www.speedrun.com/pd2/thread/hfwei

Provided this new system gets approved, henchmen beta runs will become retroactively allowed.

(Shameless copy/paste from the Discord server.)

Hey guys, we've worked on how we should handle the henchmen update for the leaderboards, and here's what we've come up with:

Main leaderboard (unchanged) http://imgur.com/a/Oa4fo

Solo category (detail) http://imgur.com/a/D5RbE

Co-op category (detail) http://imgur.com/a/ErsCz

So basically:

• Glitchless subcategory is deleted, and replaces the currently obsolete "Major Skip" variable. This means kicking/rejoining becomes legit (but more on that topic later), and you no longer have to submit duplicate runs (unless it's a DW+ run, submit it in any diff as well)
• Solo (any + DW+) is the category the most affected by the henchmen boosts. Because of this, there is now any% and botless subcategories, of course the run that gets displayed on the main page is the fastest among both categories. Botless doesn't include previous runs done with bots, for the sole reason that otherwise it would sort of become a duplicate if Overkill changed the interaction speed boost. This subcategory is focused on challenge rather than perfect time, so while it will often be beaten by bot runs, it is still interesting.
• Co-op is slightly less affected, but it widens the gap between 2, 3 and 4-player runs as they play differently with or without bot boosts. Those 3 subcategories now stand on their own, and bots are always allowed (well, except for 4-player runs as it would be hard to play with bots). The number of players becomes a STRICT rule. You must always have 2/3/4 players at any time during a game, so no kicking/disconnecting/rejoining. Disconnecting/rejoining is allowed between days. Kicking is allowed if one player stands on the escape. Time displayed on the main page will still be the fastest among all 4 subcategories, but at least there is a way to create micro-leaderboards inside the co-op category. So splitting the leaderboard to be fair without splitting it too much, so that newcomers can still find records easily.
• The fourth "Shuffle" subcategory is a new one that benefit from bot boosts. You can do whatever you want, like start a game with 4 players, have 2 people leave the game so that the remaining 2 benefit from bot boosts, then have a third person join until the end. Also, if doing a "shuffle" run, still limit it to 4 different players. For now. It can change if someone provides an amazing 6-player run or something like that.

Pros for that system is that we will depend less on future updates, it will be easier for us mods to transfer already existing runs to the new subcategories, and those subcategories apply both to IL and full game runs while being easy to implement using the current ones. Also it avoids category clutter issues like you can see on this (rejected) draft. http://imgur.com/a/wD3lN

Feel free to ask if you have any question/doubt about the new system, and please tell us if you are okay with it. If replies are overwhelmingly positive we will implement it, otherwise we'll discuss with you guys to find another workaround.

(Also henchmen beta runs will be allowed retroactively.)