England"which has always been accepted and is not any kind of cheating"
The killcount/itemcount script was never accepted and moderation was largely unaware it even existed. I had to ask people around to find out what it even was. It's hard to ban things if you don't know they exist and it's pretty severe cheating in 10 star runs. I don't see how it's even possible to argue it's not.
"A small graphic bug due to an old emulator should not be a rejection factor."
It's not "a small graphic bug", it's a global issue in how the game's lighting effects are rendered which creates an extremely noticeable difference between emulator and console versions.
I say this from the experience of having ran on these outdated emulators and then transferring to console, I had to actually re-learn entire sections of the game due no longer being able to see what I was doing as well. That flashing on/off of the light I do on the lighthouse run is a strategy I employ to combat the reduced visibility and gain my bearings in the darkness. I had to learn to do this when I changed to console where I didn't need to do it at all before because the emulation renders so bright that it's a non-issue, and flashing the light on/off has implications for attracting enemy attention etc, all of this is unnecessary on old emulator builds because you can see really well in the dark due to poor emulation where console cannot.
If you do not think old emulators don't have some sort of advantage in this regard, I posit that you seriously try it for yourself.
"it will also limit runners who need to use certain versions due to performance issues. "
This just isn't a problem moderation ought to concern itself with. We're not here to pander to people on bad computers.
I agree on the count of wishing people would spend the time to make an sr.c post agreeing with stuff but I also have no ability to force people to do it and Discord is often the only means I have to get opinions from relevant parties. It'd be great if people could do that in future for me, thanks.
" and that should be addressed by multiple mods swiftly"
Sure, I agree. Let me know if you find the other mods.
it's kinda looping back around to an issue where I repeatedly find it really hard to poll the SH community for any sort of collective opinion on matters like this.
Now, onto the other guy's post:
"but it is very strange to add certain rules after getting a wr"
Would you have preferred I done it beforehand? There's no timing here that people weren't going to give me shit for, nor is this a compelling argument about anything, it's just questioning my motivation, which is not only mildly insulting, it's also actually totally irrelevant. Non-argument.
"and you were not really open to discuss with the community"
This thread exists, the change was discussed with many prominent community members on the community discord to a largely positive reception and they even helped me refine the ruling to be much clearer than it's initial draft. I cannot help you if you do not make an effort to engage the community here, I'm doing literally all I can here to listen to as many people as possible and yet I'm still being told I'm not open to discuss things with the community. Nah.
"(including closed my topic without giving chance to other people manifest). "
We have threads already to discuss the matter, and frankly the argument presented in that thread was answered pretty clearly. Not much else to discuss there, so I locked the thread. I'm completely unsympathetic to the argument of "my computer sucks, so I need to change the way the game emulates but then I fail to adhere to the standard". That's not a moderation issue, that's a hardware problem.
"Rules must exist to make things fair, not to make things difficult for no purpose."
Correct, that's why the rule change exists at all. To make things fair between emulator and console, because currently old versions of emulators have a distinct advantage in a couple of respects and that's obviously not acceptable for fair competition.
"would not you simply create a category just for you."
No. The entire point of this change is to make emulators and consoles more comparable so they don't NEED to be split in the first place, because splitting emulator into a different category is an incredibly ugly, clunky change and is massively unnecessary in the face of there being plenty of emulators that are usable that present fair competition with consoles. Maybe I'm wrong but I would be sincerely surprised if that's honestly the route the SH community would prefer to go.
I could just hide emulator runs by default, that's also an option, but I don't really like that either. It's an option though if people want to go that way.
if your computer is so bad that it can't run a ps1 emulator running up to date versions and you need to change the way the game looks and performs to run it, then you're not running accurately, and also you probably need a better computer. Sorry, dude. Kinda not our problem.
Putting emulators in a separate category is a really inelegant and awkward solution that I doubt anyone wants at all.
https://discord.gg/0fgPp8yQXjcIdZ4w
I don't know why I haven't made a sticky thread with this already.
Well, if the new emulator rules are followed, then it works out fine because scripts don't exist for the allowed emulators anyway.
"DELIBERATELY the decision provide a script that ASSIST in gameplay and simply NOT USE IT! "
For testing and experimentation and aiding with the routing. In this regard, it was a success. Are you really this dumb that you're confused about the idea of gaining an advantage over console not being ok? Really?
"But this will have to be applied to the Bawkbasoup gameplay's because during his gameplay's, the script that READS the IGT and shows in REAL time was USED, and you can NOT ignore it. "
As has been stated three times now that you're either choosing to ignore or just being an idiot, the IGT display script is F I N E. OK. Allowed for use. It's /specifically/ the script that displays item and kill counts that is not ok. Seeing your IGT doesn't provide any sort of advantage over a console player in terms of how you play. Perfect information at all times during a 10 star run removes a crucial element of skill of that run, keeping track of all your stats on the fly accurately. It's a definitive advantage to non-official emulators and is not allowed.
"What if my gameplay's are to be REMOVED, what will you do about the Bawkbasoup's gameplay's... which has the same "problem" than mine, TECHNICALLY speaking. "
It's only your 10 star run that's a candidate for rejection, no other run. And Bawkba's runs have no problem at all, you're just being dense on purpose and misunderstanding the goddamn rules.
"Another thing, the script was kindly made and available and NOBODY (I repeat NOBODY) until YESTERDAY, questioned the use of it. "
I honestly didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to use it in runs and think it would be allowed, but you find new ways to surprise me.
"The rules here are very misinformed, and thus opening to "problems" like this."
The rules were previously borderline non-existent, you're just throwing a fucking tantrum because a rule change retroactively invalidates your gameplay. Grow up.
"I will remove myself for this competition because I do not like the "sudden" changes of the rules that occurred here. "
Cool, don't come back thanks.
"Until two days ago, EVERYTHING NORMAL.
There were no questions about anything. "
Wow! Rules change in accordance with new information and concerns! What a shocking concept!
"I ask kindly to the other moderators in question, have a little more attention and make the rules ABSOLUTELY CLEAR IN EVERYTHING.
In order to avoid future problems like this."
Rules have to change at SOME point, man. They don't come pre-written and stuff especially changes over time in concordance with new information, You're basically complaining at me for not being able to see the goddamn future, and I'm having none of it.
also as a side note, all of your problems could be solved by dropping five goddamn bucks on the PSN, but if you'd prefer to bitch out of the leaderboards entirely then I'm not stopping you!
Yeah, about "someone has already admitted to it". I want to check with everyone if I'm being seriously unkind on my reading of this here or if this is just straightforwardly admitting to cheating:
i'm having a hard time reading it as anything else and if that's true then I'd have to remove runs from the board
Following the rule change made for greater emulator accuracy, a very sound point was raised about the use of scripts that kept track of the item counter and kill counter, which may or may not have been used in 10 star runs currently on the board. I'm not clear on that.
Anyway, point is that the use of such scripts is obviously banned due to it presenting a huge advantage for emulator over console, as console cannot perform any kind of memory reading techniques. The current script that read these values only works on epsxe 2.0, so the rule was made to only use epsxe 2.0.5 such that this script wouldn't present an issue.
However, it's been pointed out to me that there are still ways to view the memory values for any emulator yourself via methods like Cheat Engine or making another script yourself and that telling if someone is using such a script in an emulated 10 star run, is unknowable. I agree with this, but am not sure how to handle it going forward.
There a few options, and I'd like to talk to the community and get an opinion on what they think is the best approach here:
1.) Do nothing and continue with the current emulator rulings, no kill/item script exists for the currently accepted emulators yet, but may in future. 2.) Ban emulators outright from the category, this would entail retroactively deleting both 10 star runs from the board, which would leave the category completely empty and to be honest, kinda pointless and vestigial at that point. 3.) Create a sub-variable/category that separates Emulator/Console for just 10 star runs, since 10 star is the only category that presents this potential advantage. This is a solution, but still presents a couple of issues of basically subtly ok'ing mild cheating via the script.
These are just the options I can think of off the top of my head, maybe someone has a much more elegant solution they can post.
As for my personal opinion, I'm kinda leaning 2 at the moment but I'm very much on the fence about it. I do not want to make a decision like this hastily, so have at em, boys.
Considering literally all you've done is come in here, misunderstand a rule about scripts, insult me repeatedly as being the "least prepared" despite being the only mod of the board armed with some facts and comparisons and actual research on emulators on which to base a fair rule change for future accuracy of the board, question my motivation as wanting to enact a change following a world record (I honestly don't even get how this logically follows, this change doesn't make it any more likely that I'll keep records???) and not a move motivated by wanting greater emulator accuracy as something that's been bugging me for literally months now, forgive me if I'm incredibly unsympathetic to your complaints in this instance.
use epsxe 2.0.5 or bizhawk, don't use the killcount script because it's unfair to console, timer script is fine, I'll figure out what to do with 10 star in a later thread, probably. That's the long and short of it. If you don't like this, you're free to just not submit.
"Eventually, if someone (or dchaps himself) create an script just to see IGT ON ePSXe 2.0.5, it's ok for me, since it's impossible not to look to the kill/item counter on Dchaps script when I play 10 Stars."
I do agree with you, but that's an extremely compelling argument for banning emulator from 10 star, which I don't want to do because it basically entails nuking the category entirely due to its only runs being emulator, but that's very much a separate matter for the time being, I ought to make a seperate thread about that.
The timer scripts are fine. It's the killcount and item count that are not ok. Chill the fuck out.
" (apparently, scripts are not allowed only AFTER YOU beat the record in this category that is considered the hardest) "
who the hell considers ufo the hardest
Use epsxe 2.0.5 and not 2.0 for the exact reason of the script not actually being legal (or particularly fair to anyone on console) for runs. I'll edit the rules to make this clearer.
Use of "dchaps' SH_SRT v0.10" script to keep track of your enemy kills and item count for 10 star runs is not allowed because it's a severe, heavy advantage gained by literally reading the memory of the emulator that official hardware cannot do at all. The purpose of that script was for testing and experimentation, using it during runs is cheating and consequently runs done on epsxe MUST be using 2.0.5. Bizhawk and Mednafen are otherwise unaffected.
Following a bit more discussion, I've added a short list of emulators I can personally vouch for emulating Silent Hill 1 with accuracy to the console versions under default settings and will be accepted onto the boards:
epsxe 2.0 BizHawk Mednafen
Use one of these if you elect to run on emulator, other emulators will likely be rejected for emulation inaccuracies.
Following community discussion from the series mods and active runners on the community discord, the reception to this proposal seems mostly affirmative, so I've gone ahead and made the necessary changes:
This text was added to the rules of every category:
"As of January 27th, runs done on older builds of epsxe or any emulator that inaccurately emulates Silent Hill's lighting effects will no longer be accepted onto the boards.
See for a comparison:
Top: Older build of epsxe Bottom: Newer build of epsxe
If you are running on emulator, please make sure you're using an up to date version that emulates lighting correctly."
This is kinda something I've wanted to bring up for a while but I notice a lot of runs come in on emulator, and they all seem to use older builds of epsxe for some reason and this has been slowly starting to bug me more and more because old versions of epsxe don't emulate the darkness and fog effects correctly relative to the console version and relative to other more up to date emulators.
Top: Old version of epsxe Bottom: New version of epsxe
the top has this weird glow around the objects because it's not emulating something to do with how the game handles lighting properly, which grants much clearer visibility to the player in darker areas of the game (Silent Hill being what it is, this makes up like half the game) compared to someone playing on the official hardware.
It's a minor advantage, but since all that would need to be done to deal with it is just asking people to use an up-to-date build of epsxe, or use Bizhawk or something, I don't think it's asking too much that going forward we no longer accept runs done on emulators that don't emulate SH's lighting effects correctly.
tl;dr : I want to add a rule banning older versions of epsxe due to emulator inaccuracy. Newer builds and alternate emulators like Bizhawk are still fair game.
someone bloody sticky this for me because i'm not a series mod
We have one of these!
if you are in second you are an inferior human being, become 1st for greater validation
(what is this thread, why is this thread)
"if you were new to speed running, if you wanted to, your goal could be to get the best time in the Beginner category, knowing that you're not yet ready to get a much better outcome on the same level as those runners who have achieved great runs that are way beyond your current skill level."
Nah, see I don't like any of this and frankly I think it belies an unhealthy approach to speedrunning in general. It seems to treat "speedrunning" as one skillset that some people have and some people don't and you hone this "speedrun" skill as you go, when in reality it's all about practice and familiarity with the individual game. While I'm certain there's a certain mindset that does better in speedrunning, some people have that mindset from the outset, it's something you can learn but not something everyone needs to learn. Some people are just driven as fuck when they first start out.
If you want to set a reasonable goal for yourself when you're not as familiar with the game as others, just...set a reasonable goal for yourself? I dunno why you need a divisional breakdown to accomplish this.
This system sounds bad to me purely because it creates an additional layer, maybe even just psychologically, between a new runner and the perceived "elite". Let me hit you with some real talk, the "elite" of your favourite speedgame? Random chucklefucks who've practiced a lot and gotten good with basically just raw determination and willpower. That's not to downplay the accomplishments of anyone at all, but rather to point out that you too are such a random chucklefuck and you need not concern yourself with the distinction between a "Beginner" and an "Expert", simply aim to be as good as you can and you too may find yourself among your game's top players.
