Since when run has to start at car selection screen and why? There's already runs done by me(all my runs) and larathen that doesn't start there.
I set race like this, I put 12 stages in custom and then start it and choose car setup and quit main menu. Then I resume it and car setup is on so I save time.
And exactly what is considered a car selection menu? Is it the menu with all the car classes or can I be inside specific car class and start timer right before I click on the car I'm about to drive?
Oh didn't realise there were already runs that started from the resume menu. I had checked a few other runs before I started moderating here that all started at the car selection screen and assumed that rest were the same.
Most speedruns don't allow from starting from a blank file, it's always from a new file. Can affect things like initial load times and animation speeds etc, depending on when timing actually starts. For this game in particular it also allows much easier validation that the category is correct, as I can see that all 12 stages have actually been selected and the car is in the correct category, as well as that the run has actually started from the beginning, all of which make validation more efficient.
Runs starting from the car selection menu would begin inside the specific car class when you click on the car you're about to drive.
Ultimately if there are already runs on the board that start from a blank file rather than a new file then any new runs that follow the same pattern should also be allowed, even if the rules that are already written somewhat contradict this, so you can go ahead and resubmit the run and I'll get it validated for you. Really though all runs should have the same starting point in any speedgame, this game just has quite a bit of weirdness to it's rules tbh that no one really wants to fix. Hell, it still hasn't been decided whether we should go by RTA or in-game time, it just never got decided. Same with the starting point for runs apparently. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
RTA doesn't make much sense with such differences in loading time, I personally would get rid of it. If there's no RTA, it's way easier to time the whole run because then only the driving counts. So yeah, kill RTA, pretty please :D
Yeah RTA is not fair for console users because loading times with them are like 25-30s. On higher end pc they're under 15s so it makes a lot over 12 stages.
Then again using only In Game Time would mean u can restart every stage unlimited amount and just hotlap them until u are satisfied with the times. If only IGT is used then maybe there should be a rule for that it's not allowed to restart stages , but this would be time consuming to verify. But who would want to watch such "speedrun" where u are hotlapping stages for maybe several hours. I would only do IGT speedruns if stage restarts are not allowed. If we settle for No Restarting 12 stages IGT (one attempt per stage) then there needs to be proper punishment for trying to add a run where restarts where used (like permanent ban+all previous legit runs would get removed too).
When u do 12 stages in custom championship or career there's No restart bonus money given to u if u haven't taken restarts (on masters level it's 25k). From that prize money breakdown it would be easy to check that restarts where not used if speedrun is based only on IGT (speedrun vod would have to then show prize money breakdown at the end). In those career/custom championships u can't choose location or stage order or weather+time of day conditions and can't have really accurate split times so it's little bit more difficult /awkward to setup for a speedrun use if u just want to do one specific location (u need to retire events until u get location u want, but time of day+weather would be random which can/will affect your stage times compared to best possible conditions).
The main reason for RTA at this point is that there's nothing stopping people from jumping the start, resulting in penalty times that messes with IGT. We already have runs on the board that do this, hence why it's RTA at the moment. Hell, if anyone ever manages to find a wrong warp due to respawning it would have the same problem. Basically because of the way the game handles IGT in the first place it's not a great solution to accurately measure how fast someone's run is unless you're just doing proper ILs.
We can change the rules but it'll result in the speedgame becoming far more limiting and runs will need to be culled.
To be clear, changing the rules is probably the best solution but I'll need to discuss it with some of the other people who's runs were using RTA. You guys pretty much are the community at this point, and the rules should reflect what the community wants to run.
Another solution could also simply be to have separate categories for RTA and IGT, to separate those who jumpstart and those who don't.
There's thread where I asked about Jumpstarts in RTA and there Larathen(when he was moderating) says it's not allowed so I haven't used them. So now they're allowed?
edit: I didn't even want to make jumpstarts because if I get new personal best times(for the global leaderboard) on the speedrun then those stage times would have 10s time penalty included.
But checking that there's no jumpstarts is time consuming, that's why I originally asked then if they're allowed because u can save time in RTA with them.
Okay, how about RTA w/o loads? The biggest issue, the loading times, would be gone, but we still have RTA. Only problem would be for the moderators to time it, I guess.
Looking at that thread now, he never explicitly stated whether it was against the rules or not. Nor did he ever fix up the rules if he did mean it. RTA loadless does make the most sense from an RTA perspective, however upon thinking about it more, the majority of the runs are currently in the category of in-game time and in the sense of preserving what's already on the board it would make more sense just to keep those runs, plus easier to calculate times. The main category of speedgames isn't always the fastest one after all. Ultimately it's down to how you guys want to run the game really.
Okay, I personally think IGT without restart is the best thing, but let's see what Karik thinks about it :)
IGT without restarts works best for me. I will start those runs at car selection screen so they can be used in both categories.
Both categories? What's the other category? I can easily just re-sort everyone's time by IGT, there's no reason for there to be more than 1 category atm. This is more so just to finally solidify the damn rules.
By both categories I meant if there will be separate IGT without restarts and RTA categories
But having only IGT No Restarts -category is best imo and fairest, differences(especially loading times) between hardware and platform is removed and No Restarts allowed means u have to be fast and consistent.
No Restarts means that u can't use it at all between 1-12 stages, for example if u crash the car on the 12th stage into DNF u can't restart that stage, but u have to abandon that whole run and start a completely new run from car selection menu again or if u take a jumpstart that gives 10s time penalty and which is added to your stage time(and IGT / Total Time) u can't restart the stage to take that penalty away.
VOD should start in the car selection so car can be easily verified and that all 12 different stages are selected. Checking that there's no restarts used will take time because VODs can possibly be slightly longer too when u are in no hurry in car service menu for example(u can more carefully choose what u gonna reapir on the car and how much or u can change car setup little etc when in RTA u had to do it quickest way possible in menus to lose least time). Maybe stage start and end times on the VOD should be provided so it can be more easily verified that restarts where not used. It's little bit extra work though for runners, but maybe u have to only do it couple times for few first runs and after that u can be trusted more (and proper penalties given will stop most people for trying to cheat also).
To prevent possible cheaters there should a proper penalty given after one warning. Like if u try to add a run with restarts used (after that one warning) it should result in a permanent ban and previous even legit runs will get removed too.
Or maybe restarts are allowed in a case of DNF or puncture etc, but every use of it will give 3minute time penalty added to IGT so it can't be abused. For this u have to mention how many times u used restart in that run so correct amount of penalty time can be added to IGT. Cheat attempts (for example trying to pass a run with 2 restarts in it and only saying 1 restart was used) on this will eventually lead to permanent ban and so on.
Let's not overcomplicate this; if someone loses 3 minutes because of a DNF, the run is dead anyway. I'd still go with no restarts :)
^Yeah it wont be a good time with penalties and is easily beatable but at least there will be a run on the leaderboards which others can try to beat and which u can then improve later by just doing run without restarts. It can happen that u get DNF on the very last stage(like in Monaco it's very easy to dnf) and the whole run is all wasted and it can't be on the leaderboard if restarts are not allowed at all. It can't be abused for hotlapping purposes either when there's time penalty. I was also thinking if no restarts at all-rule is too strict for not so good players/speedrunners in this game so they are turned off by that and don't want to speedrun this game then.
Time penalty could be 5minutes per stage for taking restart which is easier to count and add on the IGT.
But no restarts allowed at all works for me if penalty time thing sounds too complicated.
Adding manual penalties would be a nightmare to moderate. I'd suggest ranking by IGT, but still having RTA as a secondary ranking to settle ties, or to clearly show who restarted. That way there's incentive to actually go slightly fast during the menus and not restart. Otherwise it's just gonna become way too complicated. If there is to be a penalty for restarts I'd rather just disqualify the entire run if someone does.
Time Penalty would be max 5minutes per stage (meaning u can restart stage how many times u want to), like if u take 1 or more restarts on every stage(12stages) it will give 60min of penalty time on top the IGT.
Speedrunner would be person who will add penalty time on top of his/her IGT time, he/she would also have to mention the stages where restarts were used. There just needs to be permanent ban+legit runs removed -punishment for those persons who try to cheat with this (trying to add runs with wrong amount of time penalty on IGT if they took restarts and get caught at some point).
That's why I mentioned that u have to add every stage start and end time(+stage time) from the VOD to description so checking possible use of Restarts can be done more easily (u can go back from stage start to see transit from previous stage or from car service, and u can compare stage start and end and stage time to verify that there's no time to even use restarts.
Like this: 1st stage 0:50 -> 4:20 (3:30.24)
and explanation: 0:50 means start(end of the countdown) of the stage on the VOD, u can go back on the vod to verify that transit from previous stage or menu was free from restarts 4:20 is end of the stage on the VOD (moment u crossed the finish line) (3:30.24) is the stage time and u can easily see that gap between stage start and end on the VOD is also 3:30:?? so there's no time to even use restart, even restart immediately after a jump start(which adds 10s to stage time) would make VOD gap at least 5-10s longer than stage time.
Not mentioned Restart after jump start could look something like this if someone is trying to cheat 0:50 -> 4:30 (3:30.24), and u can see that start->end gap is 3:40:??, but stage time is 3:30.24 so there's something weird in this one if speedrunner didn't mention restart taken on this stage. If runner had finished stage after the jump start in legit way written description for the stage would've looked like this 0:50 -> 4:30 (3:40.24).
Writing stage start->end, stage time on VOD description is little bit extra work for speedrunner but it makes checking use of restarts easier. With IGT u are in no hurry after the stage so u have time to write down your stage time and if u used restart. After the run u make highlight/vod of the run and from it write down start and end times of the stages.
I mean, maybe? But I don't think something like that should be necessary and just over-complicates the nature of submitting a speedrun. Same with time penalties, it's just really weird. Plus this is speedrunning, if you're gonna have penalties for restarting, then you may as well not even restart at all. Makes much more sense to just ban it if there's no point in even allowing restarts.
But will no restarts at all rule scare people off so they don't want to run this game then? Is it too strict for some not so good runners? Current leaderboard is quite empty for some locations so I don't mind if there was runs even with Restart time penalties in them (they would be easily beatable, but if it brings more runs than No Restarts rule then it's just fine).
In some locations like Monaco it's very easy to get DNF by just going of the snowbank/rock barriers, like u miss braking by 3meters/10feet or less and car can slide over the bank/barrier into DNF (also in Greece u can get DNF by going off the cliff in Perasma Platani/Thiristra Thea stage +short versions of it) so I was thinking will No Restarts at all -rule cause that people don't want to drive Monaco at all maybe (I was able to do Monaco 2010s IGT speedrun recently without restarts recently but on the other hand I've over 900h in this game so it's quite easy for me, but I did have some close calls on my run). In other locations u can also get DNF but only by crashing very hard into objects(trees,cars,poles,rocks etc) or if certain parts on the car wear out and break completely (at least engine or transmission or suspension or wheels failures will give dnf).
I don't mind No Restarts -rule if we decide to go with it.
edit: I could post that my recent Monaco 2010s all stages IGT run with stage start->finish (stage time) information in the description so u can see how it would look and if Restart use is easy to check/verify. For me adding that information is maybe 30-60min job after the run but I don't mind doing it because usually these speedruns are so tiring that I can only do like couple of them per week max.
