The cutscene glitch has no impact on the way the LRT timer tracks time from the start of the game when its already active. You only need to set it up the first time and its there until you either close the game or trigger guy savage.

Edit*if you mean rta for console then by all means that can be discussed for sure.

The very fact that the glitch has no impact on the LRT timer is a problem for discussion, not a reason to think there is no problem. Shouldn't a required part of the run that takes time to accomplish be counted as part of your overall time? Say you can beat the game in 62 minutes LRT without the glitch, but that same run takes you 60 minutes with the glitch. But you MUST do the glitch setup to benefit from it and that takes 1 minute (for argument's sake). So you can't actually beat the game in 60 minutes with the glitch, it took you 61 minutes for the full run.

The LRT does not count skippable cutscenes in the slightest way. Therefore your 61 LRT vs 60 LRT is literally 1 minute of skill issue or RNG, not the glitch. I genuinely am not understanding your argument for the PC LRT side here.

And what if I reset? You want to add that time to every attempt when theres zero impact on the time on lrt? I dont understand

I'll give it one last honest try. A standard resetted run just starts over. A run with the cut-scene skip glitch starts with the glitch setup, which cannot be avoided if you are using the glitch. That time should be accounted for if you want an accurate measure of the length of the run. Since you also seem hung up on the LRT aspect of it, let's cover the other timing methods for the same situation. If we go IGT the time used to setup the glitch does not count so the end screen time would be incorrect. If we went pure RTA and didn't count the setup as part of the run, then we would also have an inaccurate measure of the length of the run. So the problem is not with the timing method, it is that without a plan we are not properly accounting for the entirety of the run that is being timed.

The other timing methods are exactly what my edit addressed this is another discussion i have no horse in. Your original message is understood by me as it impacts the lrt by 2 min which it does not. Im not trying to be a dick about this and if I come across this way I apologize. As well as for misunderstanding if i did. Console needs the discussion on it for sure, that I agree with. PCs overwhelming agreed on LRT method its irrelevant at this time.

People have discussed time being saved by using the glitch. 2 minutes is just a guesstimate without proper testing but fragments of time from more frame perfect cut-scene skipping add up quick. Is it your position that the glitch will save you no time on your run? Do we have evidence for that? Because from what little tangible discussion that has been had so far as I have seen, we don't fully know anything. If we can wipe away the possibility that the glitch saves time given proper testing then the problem would indeed disappear. I don't think we're there yet but if you think we are I just want to see the evidence that was conclusive to you.

"Shouldn't a required part of the run that takes time to accomplish be counted as part of your overall time?"

Worth mentioning that RAM Manipulation in MGS1 and Load Trick in MGS2/3 HDC exist. Whether these things should exist is a question, but setting up a run before doing a run isn't unprecedented in this series.

I could extend this reasoning to setting up options beforehand in games where options are not saved (again, MGS1 Integral for subtitle time save). The 'game' hasn't started but I certainly have booted it up (when does a game start, really?). At that point, starting your timer from console boot (JRTA) would make the most sense. I know Wallguy isn't suggesting this for Triangle, I'm just exploring this quotation's concept.

I do Appreciate the attempt to engage the conversation with previous examples of unique situations. Or course I am not in favor of making bad administrative decisions today because we also made bad administrative decisions in the past. Not that I wish to re-litigate any mentioned examples, nor am I dialed in enough to MGS1I quirks to to comment on that one.

As a general rule when a new trick/glitch is discovered and fits into the "fake time save" category I tend to want to ban them. I generally define fake time saves as things that lead to lower igt while inflating RTA. One example being spam pausing in MGS2. I do feel that the community should initially strive for consistency and sound logic when possible. But we also have the power to break with both if it serves the will of the community in a meaningful way, like removing a toxic part of a run. For example bypassing the long autoscroller opening to MGSV, or allowing the NG++ save file for essentially NG runs on MGS2 to avoid having to sit through the Stillman cut-scene.

I'm open to discussing that sort of logic-breaking exception for Delta which is why I opened the conversation saying if we allow cut-scene glitch at all we may need to allow it in NG even though it breaks a NG template.

All things are open for discussion and I hope the best decisions are made as a result. In regards to the cut-scene skip glitch in particular we need reliable tested answers to the questions I raised in the above posts before we can even make an informed decision.

As a sample, is this on the track of what you're looking for wallguy? because you're asking me if the glitched cutscenes will save me time in my own personal runs, the answer is no, not in the agreed timing method LRT. (RTA is still displayed) these are all within the realm of times i've been achieving here over the past several days. i've made thedementedsalad aware of the microticking at the start which is still under 1/10 second, i dont normally see this because I display tenths in my own streams. Console is a different conversation i have little knowledge in as i do not own a PS5 or an xbox series, i would not be shocked if it is an issue there when/if things get patched. the curse of console speedruns unfortunately.

Wait, the load remover just doesn't count cutscenes at all? Are they also not counted towards IGT or something? If it's just a "load" remover, why not count cutscenes, technically that still involves player input...

I tend to also lean on the side of disallowing "fake time saves" and these sorts of things like, "hey let's just not count the cutscenes in our timer," which, fair enough for PC bros I guess, but console guys are a little screwed, unless the IGT also doesn't count cutscenes. Then you have discrepancies like this which leads to people ultimately abandoning console, because, hey, free time save!

How i understood it was the game treats the cutscenes as transitions which the way the LRT autosplitter works right now isn't looking at for time. I'd suggest reaching out to thedementedsalad for more specifics. Im just running the game with it right now.

Thanks for taking the time to do that video Glenn, it definitely puts my concerns at ease so I can start to form an opinion whether I support allowing the glitch or not. I don't yet use the autosplitter(and don't know if I will) but I did not know that running cut-scenes were not counted at all with the LRT timer. I wonder if we are destined to have to let console and PC rules diverge. This glitch throws a wrench in attempts at parity for sure.

I don't know if a rules divergence will scare people off just because console can be patched out of equal competition. People looking for max speed tend to be on pc. And if console is protected by separation it can have its own competitive ecosystem. But since I won't be playing on console in the foreseeable future I'll leave that discussion for people that are invested in the console branch.

Greetings, esteemed members of the speedrunning community.

At present, I am undertaking runs on NG+ European Extreme, employing the airwalk technique in conjunction with all acquired items from previous playthroughs, a most refined endeavour in pursuit of the illustrious FoxHound rank, attained with the utmost haste.

What follows are my considered reflections upon the rules.

Categories by Difficulty

It is beyond dispute that Very Easy and European Extreme reside upon entirely different planes of existence. To conflate the two would be most improper; thus, they ought to remain distinct.

NG vs NG+

It is only fitting that NG and NG+ should be honoured with separate leaderboards. In NG+, one may avail oneself of boss camos and other treasures earned in previous ventures from the very outset. NG, however, demands one earn such luxuries afresh — whether by vanquishing formidable foes or by diligently attending to tasks such as eliminating all GA-KOs to acquire the AT-Camo.

Any% / All Bosses / Glitchless

Each of these deserves its own distinguished leaderboard. The notorious Airwalk glitch has become so widespread — and so transformative — that to ignore its influence would be an affront to order.

Patches as a Variable

At present (version 1.1.3), no meaningful alterations have occurred. Should a future patch make significant modifications to gameplay or routing, then, and only then, would a separation be judicious. For now, there is no such necessity.

Timing Method

My chosen method employs LiveSplit with LTR timing, though I invariably display the final scoreboard at the conclusion of the run, so that IGT may be observed. A recently unearthed stratagem allows one to bypass all cutscenes automatically, and since time spent dismissing cutscenes is tallied in IGT, I hold this practice to be unsporting in NG. As it can be activated once and carried forth into subsequent runs, it smacks of undue preparation. Thus:

• In NG+, where prior preparation is the very essence of the category, the method may be permitted.
• In NG, however, it ought to be forbidden, save for those instances in which it is activated within the selfsame run. Therefore, the official measure of record should be IGT as presented upon the score screen.

Score Screen Requirement

Yes indeed — its display is essential, for it is the most elegant means of affirming IGT.

Legacy vs New Style

To permit transitions mid-run seems only proper. One may already pause the game and adjust to 30 FPS for airwalking most effectively; thus, the liberty of altering style should likewise be granted.

Grenade Camo

This item may be deemed acceptable. It is accessible in NG from the outset, provided one selects “I like everything about MGS” before embarking. Accordingly, it should not be prohibited.

Special Items

Only those expressly designated as “Special” by the game shall fall under such classification. These are:

• Stealth Camo
• Infinity Facepaint
• EZ Gun

All other items are permissible, provided they are rightfully unlocked and not acquired by illicit means.

Unless folks have decided instead of depending their area reloader yes/no decision on IGT vs RTA for console have decided one way of the other, my suggestion: we do IGT, no quick reloading for now, check back in 2 weeks see if we like/love/hate it and change if necessary. get some runs in, on the board and go from there. thoughts?