Personally I'd be in favor of allowing it since it would most certainly invalidate all existing runs. Not exactly the strongest argument but when also considering how rushed MM7 was it's not hard to imagine they meant it to be GM level but didn't update the text. Of course the same could be said for the opposite which makes this a tricky decision.
I'd like to hear other people's opinion on this.
Maybe biased here but I don't think NPCs are supposed to function like party members. I wouldn't consider it any different than using Gate Master while Invisible, as it doesn't dispel like it would when your party casts it. I used to consider that a glitch, but I don't think anyone would mind that.
Should be allowed. If not there are just small things it would change, you just have to go back till your party is "green". This makes the run 1 or 2 minutes longer, so for me its ok this "glitch".
Its obviously a small glitch or oversight and not a big deal but its kind of inconsistent to allow this while banning stealing the control cube since the arguments and evidence as basically the same
The cube thing is a little different though. I believe that stealing isn't supposed to work at all outside shops. The book saying you killed Tolberti doesn't actually matter then.
Anyway, right now I see two options. Either ban taking advantage of gate masters or rename the category to no major glitches and allow it.
I see it as the same as the other issues of 'intention' vs 'game as published'. I don't have strong feelings one way or another on the issue, but do like having well defined and consistent rules.
(What I see as the game's) Intentions: 'Kill the monsters in the wine cellar' 'Don't use (Master level) portal to escape combat'
Game as published: 'Just enter and exit wine cellar' 'NPCs bypass the spell description (or are actually GM not M level)'
It seems odd an interpretation of a line of text is more debated as a glitch than casting Implosion spell behind a corner where Tolberti can't shoot you, something I've gotton multiple complaints in my comments about. Obviously that's probably not developer's intent either. I don't really care about it regardless, but resetting two categories for one rule change seems like a waste of time when there are already other dubious things allowed.
Attacking monsters around a corner is just a strategy, nothing buggy or glitchy there. It's like claiming that camping in a shooter is cheating. Lame maybe, but often effective.
There are already other dubious things allowed. Care to expand on this? Is there something else in addition to using gate masters "improperly"?
I apologize for misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to argue it was a glitch I just saying many people would. As I previously stated, Town Portal NPCs don't dispel invisibility like it would when you cast it on your character so casting Invis then Gate Master is kind of an exploit if you believe NPCs should function like they would your party members. (I Don't know if you were referring to that already when saying "using gate masters improperly") Also fairly minor but killing Judge Gray by save/loading. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining I just don't want to have a rule change reset everything then a month later someone complains about something similar and we do it all over again so might as well just bring it up now.
I apologize for misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to argue it was a glitch I just saying many people would. Ah I see, my bad.
I don't feel too strongly about using a gate master near monsters one way or the other but teleporting while invisible seems a bit much for "glitchless". I just never thought about it that way before.
And like you said, details like these are likely to show up again so it seems like the most sensible option is to just rename the categories. I'll go ahead and make the change now, though that doesn't mean the discussion is over necessarily.
Anerag, why do you think stealing shouldn't work outside shops? The game manual says:
"Stealing Characters with the Stealing skill can attempt to lift items and gold from people and creatures. To have the active character attempt this, Ctrl-click on whomever you want to steal from. A failed attempt to steal can have all sorts of negative consequences, so be careful whose gold you take."
It even mentions creatures explicitly. So unless there are creatures in shops,...
Sure wish I had seen this section of the manual a bit earlier... Can't help but feel like I'm making this mess worse and worse.
Originally I wanted to allow stealing the cube since the books saying you killed him doesn't hold much weight for me. Then someone was claiming something along the lines of stealing not supposed to work outside shops (not an exact quote). They noted how the message "Official" appears when successfully stealing an item, leading to me incorrectly believe that stealing items was an unintended, buggy side effect of the stealing skill and banning it. I'd be ok with allowing it again.
For what it's worth, someone I know asked Tim Lang, one of the developers about stealing the cube and he said it's ok, but take that with a mouthful of salt.
And while we're at it, could I get everyone's opinion on the vampires quest? Since the category is now called NMG, it might be reasonable to allow it. Is there a stronger argument than "you're supposed to kill the vampires" against allowing it?
Edit: to clarify, by allow it I meant skipping the quest by just entering and leaving the wine cellar, of course.
One issue I had with "killing vampire" being required is in the original version of the game none of the vampires drop the Vampires Cloak which is supposed the indication that it is the vampire Crag Hack is referring to. But without any indicator (ie. a unique name or an item drop) theres no way to argue any vampire isnt just a vanilla vampire and that the "Vampire Lord" doesn't actually exist in the unpatched game. As for stealing the cube I can see it being viewed as a glitch because the quests says to assassinate him and it seems stealing the item proving you killed him is a way to bypass that. On the other hand, they clearly programmed the Xenofex quest to only be complete when specifically he was killed so if they wanted to make sure you killed him they were more than able to.
And while we're at it, could I get everyone's opinion on the vampires quest? Since the category is now called NMG, it might be reasonable to allow it.
If the category is becoming NMG I'd support allowing it (Skipping the vampires [just enter and exit winecellar, no combat needed]), and stealing the control cube, and portal hireling stuff (I don't think they are a major glitch).
I went ahead and changed the rules for NMG to allow stealing the cube, skipping vampires quest and the gate master stuff.
Could I please open the discussion of if the following is considered a 'major' glitch? I would not personally consider it a major glitch, as it's not breaking game function, just an exploit of oversight in game terrain formatting. Also max time save is ~10s. I also think that this time save fits quite well with the feel of the NMG any% run, i.e. random small mistakes or RNG can kill a run (which I find quite exciting). And it isn't easy to do every time.
The reason I'm asking is it's come up several times in discussion on various youtube videos and myself and Xenoras intend to use it. By the fact his run from yesterday has been approved, I'm assuming this is a Yes?
My reasoning for allowing it was
- It's specific to that one spot and doesn't break the whole game
- It's difficult and not that big of a time save even with perfect execution
- It's similar to the clip in MM6 that's also allowed
So it seems that we are all in agreement though I would have preferred to have this discussion before someone implemented it in a run and submitted.
Thanks for the prompt response Anerag and yes, it sounds like we're in agreement. Noted regarding informing about any changes in the future.
