Massachusetts, USAInstead of typing back and forth (which is obnoxious), I suggest we all get in the voice call so we can talk it out. I'm going to be streaming too. twitch.tv/lakitu64
So Walrus you're telling me that we should accept runs without proof not because we have to be fair to those who can't record but because it will make people feel better? I'm sorry but how can you claim to have a ranking of NSMB speedrunners if you can't provide any evidence that the people who submit even run the game? You're right. That seems extremely silly to me. It's a noble cause to want to include people but it shouldn't be such a radical idea that you have to show that you've done a run in to have it featured. Since when did protecting the oh-so-delicate feelings of our runners become our top priority? What happened to accountability? And the worst part is that you admit that people who think that way are wrong and yet you still side with them. This baffles me.
It is absolutely a myth that you need to have a run accepted to be "part of the community". We have a responsibility to our runners to reject runs that we have no evidence even happened. Again, I feel a need to point out the hypocrisy here. You said "we protect all of our runners" but you're not willing to protect them from people who would cheat and post fake times.
Walrus/Andre asked me to write this here instead of on discord so don't @ me. Not requiring any proof of a run over a certain time can screw anyone over that time who actually has proof. I could splice a 26 and it would be removed but I could submit a 26 with no evidence and it would be accepted. Why aren't we trying to protect all of our runners? Even people who don't have what would be considered a good time deserve to know that some random person (who we can't prove even did a run) isn't going to bop them.
The problem with that is that even if the new3ds version isn't accurate to ds, it doesn't matter because it's an official version. And if it's faster people can run it and there's no problem. The idea of "running the fastest version" is something that makes a lot of sense to me. This is, however, incompatible with allowing people to use their own, non-Nintendo consoles. You don't even realize how slippery the slope is that you're standing on. How good does an emulator have to be before it's allowed? We know for a fact that desmume isn't perfect and that no emulator will ever be, for the simple reason that they'll always require a good enough PC to run them. Every DS, WiiU, 3DS, etc. has the same specs on the inside and we know that they'll always be capable of running the game correctly because the game was made to run on them. You're right that it doesn't make sense to try to prove an emulator is accurate — because it's literally impossible for it to be.
The burden of proof is on you. If you want to run on an unofficial console you have to prove that it's accurate. And we know it isn't. If you had an emulator that was demonstrably identical to the DS then it would be one thing, but we don't and likey never will.
There is an advantage. You can mash much faster on a keyboard. You can also turn around instantly whereas on a dpad there will always be at least one frame between pressing left and right. And what makes a gameplay difference "significant"? That's a real slippery slope. We do know for a fact that it's not accurate and that should be enough.
I don't think that's a good way to do it Josh. We should strive for equal application of the rules across the entire board. And @IlluminaTea there are differences. We know for a fact that desmume isn't accurate to an actual ds. And even if it was, it doesn't matter. A leaderboard dedicated to NSMB speedrunning should feature runs actually done on releases of the game, not a custom-made console.
@enejlah what? None of that makes sense. You only need one run to have a new leaderboard. The whole reason we're doing this in the first place is because having emu times and official times on the same board isn't fair. And no matter what happens, giving one run special treatment is out of the question. If you're gonna have a ruling you have to apply it to every run. The whole point is that runs of this game should have to actually be on a console made by Nintendo. While emulators are an interesting tool, they are definitely not suitable for realtime runs.
You gotta extract it first. That's most likely the issue.
Can you record a video of the problem? Doesn't sound like something I've ever encountered.
Wah suggested having a separate leaderboard for nsmbs emu and I guess that could work. The only thing is it would mean moving all the current emu runs. But it makes sense since I think everyone can agree that it's not fair to compare emu and console runs.
I'm gonna focus on ILSMB's post for a moment because he's the only one so far to offer a dissenting opinion. I also want to make something immediately clear: load timing is absolutely not the issue. We have the ability to accurately time out loads on any console, including emulators. I also want to point out, for anyone unaware, that ILSMB himself runs on emu and is a little biased in his opinion on the matter. He claims that we would lose a lot of runners, but if you actually think about it, that shouldn't even be a factor in the decision. At the end of the day what matters most is the integrity of the game. People will either switch to doing console runs or leave. That is completely up to the individual runners. What ILSMB is really asking is "is it worth alienating members of our community" and to that I would have to respond "we're not alienating anyone". Runs will not be removed, and people can just switch to doing runs on console or they won't and we can't control that. What we can control is the fairness of the rules and the quality of the runs displayed on the leaderboards. And something not so readily apparent that still must be considered is the cost of NOT having emulators banned. It means that anyone who's dedicated enough could submit a fake time and we would never know. It would sit there right next to all the legitimate console runs and there wouldn't be anything we could do about it. Not to mention the incredible ease with which runs can be spliced. Having access to savestates means redoing a segment is only a keypress away. Lastly, I'd like everyone to consider ILSMB's statement "I think we should try to accommodate, not reject." While this sounds good in principle, this kind of thinking leads to an incredibly slippery slope if you're willing to follow it through to its logical conclusion. If you actually apply that principle as it's started, then it can be used to justify things such as not requiring video evidence because we're "accommodating" people who can't record. The slippery slope goes in both directions too. If we allow emus then what's to stop someone from using whatever console they want to run the game? Not all emulators are created equal. How do you judge which ones should be allowed and which ones shouldn't? The answer is none of them should be allowed because none of them are completely accurate to the original. So I understand why ILSMB would say that but I don't think he really believes it. It's a misguided argument at best and a disingenuous one at worst. And I'll reiterate one more time: VC doesn't have anything to do with the current discussion and trying to group everything together just muddles the issue. It's very possible that vc runs will get separated from ds runs in the future but right now we're dealing with the more immediate issue of emulated runs.
VC is still a release of the game on a Nintendo console. Emu is basically someone's custom made console that can also run the game. I will also stand by not removing any current runs and just looking to the future. It would be particularly unfair to people who were told that emu was allowed and then it's like hey, surprise, we changed our minds. The point of the rule change is to make the runs featured on the leaderboards more legitimate and NOT to punish runners. I will also say this: I am not a fan of any "under a certain time"-type rules. Everyone should be held to the same standard regardless of their current standing. Having consistent rules is pretty important after all. Same goes for ILs. We should strive for fair and equal application of the rules. On the topic of separating VC from ds runs: I'm not strictly against it but I also believe it deserves its own thread and shouldn't be lumped into this discussion. Let me also describe some of the advantages afforded by an emulator in an effort to add some relevant information to the discussion. Allowing the use of keyboard controls gives the player the ability to both mash more quickly and do frame perfect turnarounds, something that is nearly impossible on a dpad. It also allows them to adjust the firmware settings in order to get better rng manipulation. Now, nobody has actually done this yet but let's not give them the opportunity. In addition, we allow (and encourage) people to submit webcam footage of their consoles. It's actually much harder to fake than raw game footage. As it stands, someone could create a tool assisted run in an emulator and submit it as an RTA time. As far as we know, this hasn't happened yet but we technically don't know for sure. Lastly, I want to bring up something that I don't think anyone here has considered. Allowing emulators encourages people to illegally download the game. Think about it. According to US law, downloading a videogame ROM from the internet in order to play it is illegal. There is some debate over whether it's ok if you've already bought the game but the truth is we can't be sure that our runners are using legitimately obtained copies. That might not matter to many people but the folks at Nintendo worked very hard on this game and I hate to see people depriving them of revenue. The main argument for allowing emu seems to be that it's much easier to stream but since the game came out on wiiuvc, this isn't true anymore. All you have to do is hook up a capture card to your console. Not only that but finding a physical copy isn't an issue anymore (not that it ever was), since the game can be downloaded from the Nintendo eShop. In fact, streaming wiiu footage is much easier on your CPU considering most capture cards support DirectShow and your PC doesn't have to worry about running the emulator, which can take up significant resources. Obviously I will support the will of the mods but in the end I'll feel a lot better about the integrity of these leaderboards if they go with a game-wide ban on emulators moving forward.
Make sure you're not running the game as admin or something
Try setting it to a different hey, pressing "ok", and then reopening the screen and setting it back to f1
I vote for cannonless as a main category and no secret exits as a misc category.
I also propose adding snowball rolling minigame as an IL or misc category (don't care which).
