@Warshoty To clarify, when I said multi-player run I meant a run using the game's multi-player mechanic. I don't see anything wrong with making that distinction.
And if I'm understanding you correctly you think that people expressing their opinions and wanting to have a reasonable discussion about said opinions is a joke because it's "taking things too seriously". How is having a discussion about something we care about "taking things to seriously".
First of all, I don't think you should belittle other people's opinions so easily. I feel like your manner of speech during this discussion has been condescending and dismissive, which is counterproductive.
Secondly, I really don't see what the big issue you have with making different categories is. I admit that your suggestion for adding the extra detail to runs saying co-op or not isn't a bad compromise, but I also don't see what the need for that compromise is. What exactly is so wrong with having multiple categories?
If it's a clutter issue then why not move 1-character to misc. since I don't know anyone who actually specifically runs that and then have 7, 11, 13 single player and multi-player categories. This doesn't take away anything that's already been done because the current leader boards would just be the multi-player categories.
What exactly is so wrong with having multiple categories?
It's a very minor difference for such a big separation. Most of the time, different categories are for runs that are very different from each other; in particular, they usually have different end goals, and it usually doesn't make much sense to directly compare times of runs in two different categories. But the co-op issue is not like this at all; the runs are almost completely the same except for a difference that sometimes won't even come up.
Splitting into multiple categories carries a substantial cost. It makes it harder to find what you're looking for, and harder to compare things you might be interested in comparing. Also, you get exponential growth in the number of categories if additional similar issues cause more splitting in the future.
Main problem we can't separate category right now for "any%" and "no co-op" because of i don't think someone who want review all videos and make notes. Who used coop who didn't. this is a lot of time. We can do it after next addon. Also my opinion any% category should be the main and "no co-op" additional like a hardmode or challenge. Also this problem can be fixed in game engine in new addon.
Or if you want spend like a 100+ hours for review. You can do it BrainTM.
Why any% should be main category? Because of this is clear game without save file or another side manipulation. Because of this abuse don't give you super advantage, don't skipping entire game like a Sonic or Portal games. ofc you still can make WR without this glitch, like a 13 blank card/emperor in a raw. Just reset game for it. But don't spoil the game for people who want's be fast.
I started use coop baby thing and i proud of it. Because of like a try speedrunner you have to use everything, what making your run faster, all glitches, all bags, all explode. I don't even feel this is cheat or unfair for other people. This abuse make game more consistanly.(at least for me).
I don't like only 1 a type of people. Who don't learning and improving. If you don't want use new strategy because of feel this is not for you. This is your decision.
@BrainTM, whether it's the multiplayer mechanic or any other mechanic it's all the same and I feel it shouldn't be treated differently to the point we need more categories. And having a discussion or an argument isn't what I'm calling a joke I'm calling out the fact that some people are "personally insulted" by the discussion we are having. To quote your first post "Elad I think actually pointed out to me the other day that he thinks a speedrun is about using all the mechanics and exploits you can find in order to go as fast as possible, which seems like a perfectly reasonable perspective. " This is what I wanted to defend, not people trying to change what I consider the universal rules of speedrunning (according to every other game that's speedrunned) because they feel personally offended by someone else's view point. I have said multiple times on this thread that the reason I don't like making a full separate category for no co-op baby is because it's one game mechanic and that's not something you make a whole new category over. It's one thing if we made a glitchless category. But, like I said no one would run that either because it would just be another category with three runs and then everyone would come back to 7-13 char. I'm sorry if anything I said sounded like I was trying to belittle anyone that wasn't what I was trying to do. I'm just an introverted speedrunner who is typing a bunch of words into a box. If your still confused about what I'm trying to say just look two posts upward at Hyphen-ated's post for a better explanation then I could ever give.
I think making any% category as main is actually a good idea not just for co op baby, for all the glitches in the game including saving and quit or black market with controller... this game has no single player mode / muiltiplayer so the whole argument of this is single player seems like it's irrelevant to this game since you can play the game either with 1 player or 2 in the same mode.
but i also think we need to solve co op baby issue after reading what zamiell said about how to use it and he's right nobody can prevent you from doing this and it shouldnt be allowed imo to use co op that way and stacking a co op baby that copies your inputs which is essentially a 150% dps up which is a lot... so for that reason i think we need to make a rule for it, also here is an example of using co op baby this way : (he used it on rebirth but it's the same thing in afterbirth)
First off, sorry it took me so long to reply but I was really busy at TwitchCon and didn't really have time to focus on much else.
@Hyphen, I would disagree that it is that minor of an issue. If there isn't a rule against spawning co-op babies then the run can drastically change. For an oversimplified example, we have the co-op baby being out all the time and giving you a "150%" dps up. That's akin to the run being 1.5x faster. Not exactly of course, but a significant enough difference in my opinion.
@Dea1h The argument that "we can't have another category because you don't think someone wants to review them" isn't really valid. Like the currently (correct me if I'm wrong) the only active mod is Hyphen. We also don't currently have things set to require verification of the run first before it shows up on the leaderboard which means that the mods don't review every single video before they show up. Instead what happens is things get posted, then people see it and if they see something wrong with it they bring it up. Adding another category doesn't seem like it would affect anything the way things are being handled currently.
Secondly, I don't see any reason to make a category the "main" category. I don't know if any other games with multiple categories have one that is designated the "main" one. There might be categories that are more popular than others and so more people run them, but it's not our job to decide which category they would want to run. That's the decision, and calling something the "main" category would just make them feel like that's the one they're "supposed" to run.
Finally, I never asked you to like me nor did I ask you to create a label for me. You're free to whatever opinion you want to have but don't push your opinions onto others. What I do ask, and what I think people deserve unless otherwise proven that they don't, is that you respect mine and other people's opinion as opposed to trying to dismiss them as unreasonable because they don't align with your own beliefs. It is also not your job to decide what is or is not "for me". That's my job. And what I'm currently trying to do is to have a civil discussion with other members of a community about something I think is important in said community. You saying "this isn't for you" is you essentially saying, "I don't care what you have to say, get out of here, this is mine and you're not welcome". So if that's what you're saying, then I'm sorry but I think that's wrong and incredibly disrespectful. I do understand that there is a language barrier however, so I'm trying not to assume anything. I'm just letting you know how it sounds to me.
@Warshoty, First of all, I would like to thank you for apologizing. I figured that could be the case but I wanted to make sure I pointed out to you how you were coming off to me. I understand that communication can be quite difficult and the whole everything is in text thing doesn't make anything easier. As well as the fact that it can be easy to get riled up over things and lose your main points in the unintentional heated-ness of the conversation. In regard to the point you were trying to defend, I agree that that is a valid point. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. To me that's one way of doing things, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways of doing things that aren't equally valid. I don't think I agree with the sentiment that "because it's only one mechanic, it's not that important". Whether it be one mechanic or a dozen, what I think is important here is the magnitude of impact it has on the run. And in this case I feel it can have a very large impact on the run as we have been given examples of. Which is why I am backing the idea of separate categories so profusely. Having "co-op babies are allowed" & "you cannot spawn a co-op baby" as two categories pinpoints the thing that can cause such a difference in the way the game is run. Which to me, seems like a perfectly reasonable separation.
@Cyber_1 I don't think I have much else to respond to your comments that I haven't already touched on. So, uh, hi? o/
But to actually, respond to what you said, the whole "main" category thing was covered where I responded to Dea1h. In terms of the "player mode" thing, I think that there's a clear difference between the run being single player and the run being multiplayer. That being whether or not a co-op baby was spawned. Just because the game doesn't have a separate mode for it, doesn't change the fact that the game is being played in a single player manner or a multiplayer manner in terms of game mechanics, right?
P.S. Sorry for the long post, wanted to respond to everyone individually and I just got back from TwitchCon and had a moment to sit down and type this out. I'm still very busy and about to go cast, so I'll read what you all have to say when I next get a moment to sit down and do so. Thank you for listening.
@BrainTM thank you for understanding and accepting my apology. I thought this discussion was about using co-op baby for devil deals and not for full runs. For full runs I would say yes it would be a completely different run then normal and would need a "solo co-op" category for using two players as one person. And using co-op baby mechanics for the normal solo run we can add the extra variable to ask if you used co-op baby or not.
under Main i mean "not misc" and on first place and like this. http://www.speedrun.com/gtavc#Any if you don';t know a few mouth ago people find greatest skipp ever and still use any% like a main category
@Hyphen, I would disagree that it is that minor of an issue. If there isn't a rule against spawning co-op babies then the run can drastically change. For an oversimplified example, we have the co-op baby being out all the time and giving you a "150%" dps up.
Oh, yeah I assumed that combat co-op wasn't going to be allowed regardless and that we were just talking about using co-op shenanigans in devil deals and any other similar tricks that might exist.
Has anyone actually been doing runs using combat co-op?
Well I pretty much lumped all co-op stuff together into the "co-op allowed" category idea since I think the best way to make a rule for it would be "You are not allowed to spawn a co-op baby." like you suggested Hyphen.
And yes, Dea1h, I think we should have both sets of categories be their own tab on the leaderboard and not have them in Misc. Although, Hyphen, is it possible to create two drop-down tabs like the Misc. ones? For organizational purposes it might be better to have a "Co-op" and "No co-op" tab and then just nest 7,11,13 runs under each of them?
It seems like there are at least several people who want to be running "co-op is allowed for devil deal tricks but not for combat." I think it's reasonable to add a leaderboard variable for that, and if people want to do the 150% dps thing (or even actual co-op runs with multiple players) then that should be an entirely separate category. But we should only make that category once demand for it actually materializes in the form of people doing those kinds of runs.
I guess the best way to phrase the "co-op tricks" variable is something like "you can't use a co-op baby to deal damage."
We can't have multiple misc-like dropdowns. When I'm editing the game settings, there's just a checkbox for each category called "misc".
Rather than "you can't use a co-op baby to deal damage.", I think we should ban additional input that is not physical, if that makes sense, because most of the setups of syncing coop babies(besides one, which is a lot of the time not even worth setting up, because it's game glitch that require changing input method for every coop baby spawn). My proposition for rule is "You are not allowed to dupe your inputs via external programs". My reasoning for allowing coop babies damage but not allowing duping input is that coop baby can be handy for some softlock potential rooms, when for example your range is not big enough and you are out of bombs, or when flies are flying above rocks, then you can spawn coop baby and clear room just with it.
Also, if someone is able to play with coop baby with his feet, I think he should be able to do that lol
So it looks like the consensus/best compromise is the leaderboard variable thing. Is that right, Hyphen?
Yeah, I guess the remaining question is whether having coop=yes means you're allowed to use co-op baby in combat, like Krak suggests. It seems clear that doing the input duping thing shouldn't be allowed.
Anyone who has been doing runs with co-op care to weigh in with their opinion?
i'm against combat coop baby. i'm fine use coop for devil deal trick but, use it for dps kind of bullshit.
I don't think anyone actually uses co-op baby for combat (by duping input with joy2key, etc) other than Zam, but if more people do decide to do those kind of runs and submitting them, then they should be their own category. It's different enough from a "vanilla" run and drastically changes the way the game is played. As for co-op baby in devil deals only, I'm all for keeping it. In my eyes it's just another in-game tool we can use to make our runs faster, and does not use any outside influence (like input duping)
