I put up 7/11/13 char, with 11 defined as "all the characters but lost and keeper" based on those being basically troll characters. That's what yama asked for and it made sense to me, since the whole point of having a difference between 10 and 11 in rebirth was that the lost is a troll character, right?

I've heard that there's been some substantial disagreement though, that some people would rather have 11 exclude lilith and keeper because they're the ones that are new in afterbirth. That doesn't really make sense to me but if a majority of runners want it that way then it will be so.

Please give your thoughts and votes

Well, in my opinion we should exclude the lost and keeper in 13 character speedruns. The logic to divide between 10 and 11 in afterbirth was to separate runnable chars and the gimmick that was the lost, meaning he was inconsistent to run. In Afterbirth, that gimmick is now the keeper, and despite the lost being buffed, he could still result in losing a potential god run for what I consider to be the main category (11). All it would take to end a run is a double tap from spinning krampus or RNG stomp for example. Applying that logic to Afterbirth now, 11 characters includes all of the rebirth 10 + lilith, and 13 is rebirth's 11 with the keeper added. Just because we played the original 7 as a category in rebirth does not mean that we should isolate these new characters from the expansion at the cost of ruining the categories.

Well in my opinion, 7,10 and 11 char speedruns should not exist but according to the fact that people want to speedrun those category i think the best possible scenario for 11 char would be to take out lost and keeper just like lost was out for the 10 char runs in rebirth! It would not make any sens to take out lilith...

I agree with 11 excluding the lost and the keeper as well, following the logic of 10/11 from rebirth. But if enough people want to run the alternative 11 char, I don't see why there can't be a category for that either.

It should be whatever category people want to run. I personally would never be interested in a category involving the lost or keeper.

I think that if we gonna do 11 characters category then excluding Lost and Keeper will be better since those are the 2 annoying/trolling characters in afeterbirth, specially with the new rooms and stuff getting 1-2 hits in a room is not very unlikely... so overall I think since we are speedrunning afterbirth and not rebirth there is no reason excluding lilith at this category.

tl;dr F¤¤k Lost and Keeper. (Says the guy that'll probably run 13 character... haha)

I had something else written, but after reading everyone else, I just agree. I understand the 'logic' behind preventing lilith/keeper (since, when we came to rebirth, we made a category for the original 7 characters/rebirth 10 character/everything 11 character), but the purpose of trying to make isaac speedrunning remotely viable is trying to limit Shitty RNG - and that comes from Lost and Keeper.

That's my shorthand version of the novel I wrote before (and forgot to post...). <3

p.s. I'm taking 13 WR. F¤¤k y'all. <3

To my mind, we should include lilith in the 11 Charac. So you can made 4 main categories. 1 char, 7 char with vanilla characters, 11 char with Rebirth's stuff + Lilith - The Lost. And an all charac category too.

I don't try the keeper for now, so I don't really know how shitty he could be. But the Lost was shitty too in Rebirth right ?

I think we could make another category too, the rebirth's 11 char. With that, every request should be fulfil

It made sense to me to do 11 Characters as just the 11 Character run you did in Rebirth because of the chronological viewpoint, but I also can see the logic behind doing it without the lost and putting in Lilith instead as the 11th non-secret character.

I don't see a problem with having both categories though and letting people do whichever one they want (or both while they're at it). We can just have an 11 Character Rebirth category and an 11 Character Non-Secret Character category.

That's my two cents on the matter.

I honestly don't see the point for 11 Characters at all. I never got 7, but then again people wanted a short category and everyone seemed to like it, so I went with that.

The logic in 7 chars was to kinda keep the Vanilla flair - run WOTL characters in Rebirth.

I expected 11 Characters to follow the same logic - run Rebirth characters in Afterbirth.

Excluding Keeper and Lost from 11 Chars seems to be the same excuse people had to run 10 Chars in Rebirth, because they don't want to lose a run to the lost? Idk, maybe you guys just wanna be able to claiim 3 WRs instead of two. But following the logic from Rebirth, 11 chars really should be everything sans Lilith and Keeper.

But as with 7 Chars it's really for people to decide what the category is gonna look like. Whatever peoplke want to run will be a category, so yeah.

tl;dr - do what you want idgaf and please stop asking me to post in this thread for god's sake

It would be nice to have two separate 11 character categories so people can run what they want and submit it to the leaderboards, but there comes a point when the categories become such a clusterfuck that it may be confusing to new people...

So for this reason i propose only having 2 categories: 7 character and 13 character (you can put them on hard/greed mode too for people that want to do that): If you don't want to deal with all the trolly shit or you don't want to waste 3 hours on a run, do the "classic" 7 character run. If you want to go all the way do 13 character. That being said people can do what they want and if it's decided that 11 character will be a certain category, that's okay by me.

Probably a stupid question, but what about Real Platinum God speedrun? If there's a 2 week speedrun, a bit more than a day is fine, too, isn't it?

I feel like this could be a fairly competitive section. The rules would be something like the ones listed to keep it entertaining.

Fully Unlocked file Each character plays to chest You can only use( pick up not just if you pass it) an item once in the whole run ( to stop people from just spawning in heart+Right ) Time starts when you press tab to enter first seed. End normally No tools to enter seeds for you These rules would allow people to come up with clever routes that change from person to person trying to figure out when its best to pick up an item to use for a run. also trying to find runs with less enemies for quicker runs. You would be encouraged to find new paths an seeds for each charter to improve your times. It would also let these trolly characters ( the lost , keeper) a more consistent run that still shows off skills. I'm interested in hearing what you guys think and sugestions.