So my biggest frustration with NG2 are the wall slashes. When you're slashing, it's so easy to accidentally use your subweapon. Is there a trick to this I'm not seeing? Maybe a specific way to hold the controller or dpad?

I find if I rotate the controller a bit, it helps some, but I still find myself accidentally using the sub when I go really fast.

If there is a specific strat or tech thing, would someone mind making a short tutorial or adding a picture so I can see it? I'm a visual learner, I need to see it to understand it.

Thanks

Just wanted to state my two cents.

The main issue with emulation in general, is that it allows the user to apply tweaks very easily. So even an inexperienced player can "cheat" by reducing lag, speeding up the game, etc. And the only way to identify these tweaks is by very closely examining the video.

There are specific emulators that allow greater flexibility than others. It's one of the reasons I always stress people to use Mesen or Bizhawk (newest version), as both are 99% accurate. Mesen is my personal preferred choice, since it doesn't allow such tweaks. But considering the vast array of emulator choices out there and people with extremely different computer setups, it comes down to making rules that eliminate some of those as choices.

The other issue that was brought up comes in the form of rom hacks that are slightly sped up versions of the original games. These can be MUCH harder to identify. Especially since they can be used on real hardware. I've been working with the Deadpool (Nes) team now for roughly 1.5 years. And almost everyone there is a self-taught rom hacker. It's not that hard to do. My concern is in the future, we will see more people applying these methods over emulator tweaks since they're harder to identify.

Lastly, another issue is TASing. FCEUX and Bizhawk are the two emulators that have the best TAS features. The issue with TAS is that it's really easy to do...anyone can make a TAS. And these videos are impossible to spot if done correctly. Its fairly easy to make a bunch of doctored up runs and then one that PBs and then run them in order and act like youre playing.

The point Im trying to make is, outside of emulators, there are a significant amount of ways to "cheat". And it's exactly why its so important that mods enforce rules that make the players using emulators specifically to put things up like their FPS, Frame Counter, etc. To make it easier to see whats going on. And why it's important for everyone, not just mods, to come together and make things happen.

And just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone a cheater, Im just stating facts that SOME people may use tweaks in order to cheat. Others apply them simply to get a better gaming experience...which is the intended use for such tweaks.

I'd like to make a few suggestions to make it easier to get your runs verified and avoid being rejected. These are all completely optional but are a way to help both you and the mods.

These are not "rules" and are not a means for rejection by themselves. But they are all advisable and helpful in proving legitimacy in your submissions.

Please note, these are all general suggestions, and not specific to NG3 or any particular game. : : -- Only submit the PB run itself, along with the required reset beforehand. Adding any ending to the vod is up to you. But I'd recommend including at a minimum, 5 seconds worth after the final split. Be sure to exclude any other videos or other runs before or after the run itself.

-- Having the controller/ keyboard clicks audibly in the vod is very helpful. This makes it easier to line up your movements in the game with the actions on your controller or keyboard.

-- Add some form of communication option in your Speedrun profile. So if a mod has a question, they can contact you directly. Otherwise, they have to reject your run just to tell you something.

-- Handcams or whole body cams (waist up) that capture your controller are a great means to verify legitimacy. Along with button inputs on screen.

-- Include the game audio, straight from the game, as you are playing it.

-- Do not cover the game screen with anything during the run, like extra windows, other videos, etc. Certain games may have moving parts or indicators that mods will look for to verify legitimacy. If parts of the game are covered up, it can be harder to detect if a run is spliced or cheated. Which means the likelihood of a run being rejected is higher.

-- Frame-counting a vod is generally a good idea. It takes only a minute or so to do it and can help in distinguishing time accuracy. It can help distinguish between 2 people with the same ranking for example and is usually a requirement for the top 5 or so placements. If you want more info on this, please contact me or ask about it on here. : : I'll add more suggestions as I think of them. But again, these are all generic, they are not rules, and are just meant to help everyone out.

^ agreed. I'd assume it would be added as either a separate platform/ category or merged with the NES Classic.

Yeah, pausing a few frames can definitely get past them. The runs I've seen are both any% and Low%. But it's not an easy game. And the main point I'm hoping people will see is, it's super easy to make mistakes in that one. So resetting happens a lot as is. I'd hate for resets to happen any more than needed.

From what I've experienced and seen with many runners, NG3 JP tends to be worse than the US version for that. Many of the enemies line up perfectly with items. So as you slash to kill the enemies, you get the item drops on accident. Im sure things could be routed to avoid that. But currently, the better routing lines up perfectly in a few spots.

The main reason we're still discussing all of this is to figure out how flexible the Low% rules can be for NG3 specifically, since its much easier to accidentally pick up or use Ninpo.

Do we stick with very strict where resets will happen far more often, which to me seems a lot less enjoyable? Or do we cater to add a little flexibility and allow expelling of ninpo down to 0 to avoid using it on accident on bosses when slash canceling?

@color_theory I hear you, but using sub-weapons to kill things is not what Low% is really about. Low% basically means bare minimum. Using sub-weapons to kill things at all, even if its just the subweapon you start with, opens the door for too many interpretations and possible confusion.

Therefore, my vote is on Version 2.

It provides flexibility for the player but also keeps things more akin to what Low% should be.

Agreed 100%. Low% should be base sword only, no pickups.

I personally think the rules of each category, for each NG game, need to be unified and the same, except for a few slight differences based on each individual game. Currently, each game has its own set of rules, we just assume every NG player knows them all. But new NG players probably don't, unless they read over each games.

For example, NG2 Low% says:

• Only allowed to wield your sword
• Not allowed to use ninpo.
• Timing starts when Ryu starts falling
• Timing ends when timer reaches 000 after defeating Jaquio 3

While NG1 Low% says:

• Only allowed to wield your sword
• Not allowed to pickup health!
• Not allowed to pickup fire armor/time stopper!
• Beat the game!

Yet NG3 Low% only says:

• Beat the game with only the sword
• Left+Right is not allowed
• Turbo is not allowed Stated ONLY in the JP Low% rules does it say the following:
• Beat the game with only the sword. No sword upgrade.

It's easy to see the confusion in that. I'd feel bad seeing Overswarms Low% run rejected, but there really isn't a category to support his run. He clearly picks up health, the big sword, and many item drops, even if he doesn't use them. The Low% JP rules clearly state "No sword upgrade", which Overswarm clearly didn't see since the Low% JP category is hidden away in the "miscellaneous" section.

Creating a new category just to support his run would be considered a meme category, so what's the point? Overswarm has more than enough skill to rerun the game with new, clearly written rules and get the same time, if not better than his current Low% run, should he wish to.

And UA's run should be moved to "Any%" since a 'No Pickups' category would end up being a meme category as well. Not enough people run the game as is, having a new 'No Pickups' category would likely never be run by anyone other than UA. Perhaps someone looking for an easy WR to add to their collection.

But we need to work on this as a community. Figure out the specific rules and make sure each game in the series, including the SNES Trilogy and the NES Trilogy runs, all have the same, clearly defined rules. In fact, in most cases, I think it would be best to copy and paste them from one game to the other. Then add the game specific rules (No Big Sword or No Shadow Clones). I would be happy to work on such a unified ruleset should anyone want.

Anyhow, sorry for the long novel, but I felt clarity was needed.

Yeah, Gotvg is not allowed. Everything else, for now, is.

I personally suggest everyone uses Mesen v0.9.7 or higher.

If for whatever reason you can't use Mesen and need to rely on Bizhawk, there is a setting under Config > Profiles --> Set it to "Tool-Assisted Speedruns". It just changes some settings around to optimize the emulator for more accuracy while playing. This uses more computing power but gives a better, smoother gameplay with less lag. If that doesn't work, play with the profiles and find what works for you.

Bizhawk with that profile selected is almost as lag-free as Mesen. I can notice just a split second more of a delay. Like, if Mesen is 0.04 lag, Bizhawk might be 0.08 lag time.

I'd recommend adding Mesen to the emulator allowed list. It's by far the best NES emulator I've ever used. The lag is very minimal and is almost as good as real hardware. It also doesnt have any fancy features, like TASing or whatnot. I used Nestopia for over 10 years and when I was recommended to try Bizhawk and Mesen this year, they blew me away with how much more accurate they are. Bizhawk is now my #2 choice, but it also has advanced TASing and editing features. Mesen is easily my #1 as the lag is only a few milliseconds. I'd highly recommend anyone using an emulator to give it a try.

It's definitely on my list to run someday as its an incredible game...but that olive grind scares everyone off....as it should :P Watching WR attempts getting a bad olive grind and resetting 10 times.

It's a very solid game, hope more people run it. I've tried to get others to play it, but most people it seems to come down to Zelda 2. If they love Zelda 2, they almost always hate Battle of Olympus or in reverse, they hate Z2 and love BoO. I think speedrunners typically have a more open mind, but it's still sad to see the lack of runners.

I think the olive grind, salamander grind, and it's cryptic instructions are what really put people off to it without giving it a chance. I know one runner was going through games, playing them each for like 5-10mins, just to test a bunch out according to the chats requests. When they finally tested BoO, they played for like 3 mins and were instantly lost, lol.

So, I watched back Scumtron's TAS last night and realized that it wasn't L + R that is used on most things. It's actually U + D + L to clip through most spots. L + R is also used on some places, but it's mostly U + D + L. I think that should be included in the rules, along with no L + R.

That's why I was asking to see a video :P One button mashing is so very different from Down+B NG mashing. Arcus has the highest Down+B NG MashyMashy I've seen at like 13/s or 14/s with 1 handed mashing with the 1 sec timer. Beerfullofbelly got an 11/s with the 5sec timer with 1 handed mashing. Mine is 8.4/s on the 5sec timer doing the 2 handed mashing with the dogbone and 9.3/s with the Wii Classic Controller on the Wii Emulator.

I use a 2 handed thumb mashing style holding the controller normally. Would be interested in seeing a video of your mash style. You pretty much need to vibrate the mash if you ever want to get the Plate Kill on Jaquio. But I have issues with it, so I just stick to 2 handed mashing. Unfortunately, the best you can get with 2 handed mashing is a 2.5 rounder or with a modified Plate Kill you can get a 2 rounder at best. Best I've ever gotten is a 3 rounder.

Not sure what the requirements are for Contra, but I use the Mesen emulator for all NES stuff now. It is by far, the best and most accurate NES emulator out there. Give it a go. It's way better than FCEUX.

I am a long time user of Nestopia. Mesen is almost like playing on real hardware. Still some slight lag, but way-way reduced compared to FCEUX and Nestopia. Best of luck!

I don't want seem like I'm trying to beat a dead horse, but I feel the need to bring this up.

So I have a soft modded Wii that lets me play emulated games on there. So I got a new controller today, a Wii Classic controller to use with it.

With real NES controllers, my all time fastest mash speed in MashyMashy is 8.4/s using the NES Dogbone controller. With my new Wii Classic controller, my mashing jumped up to 9.0 to 9.5/s instantly....with 2 handed mashing and I wasn't even breaking a sweat.

I bring this us because it has me revisiting the topic of emulators, controller, keyboards, etc. I know this is already been discussed at length, but with my new finding, I'm wondering whats going on. Is my controller + emulator cheating? If it is faster somehow, should that be allowed? Or are my real NES controllers just not up to snuff?

As I said, this topic was discussed at length on the NG3 forums. But this is sort of new, so I'm bringing it up here.Would appreciate some feedback. Thanks

Yep, it's not easy. But it sure beats trying to mash with a controller that doesn't mash well.

I figured there wouldn't be any issue with it. But just wanted to verify it with the community before ever doing it in a run. I think the controller I have now, thanks to Chambers, is more than good enough I don't have to resort to swapping. But some day in the future, who knows.

Anyhow, thanks for the responses, everyone.