Verifying p1/p8 has always been a pain. At least this puts p8 runners on the same level as p1 runners when it comes to not having to worry about the player setting after starting a run.

I think shenk said he updated somethings a few hours after you commented. Maybe try redownloading?

Are we going to create separate NG+ categories where using items from stash is allowed? Might be good to call it "Twinked" since that's how it was called when Ryu started it. For example "Twinked Baal" and "Twinked Hell Baal".```
I like the consistency in the NG+ convention but naming the category is sort of whatever. Handling how you get the items is probably the bigger issue. Will you have to submit your character save? Is there a way to view the character save like on d2 legacy with hero editor? There are funny things you can do to the character save that are easy to hide while playing normally.

```How to handle the loads?
Time without loads for LiveSplit is being worked on and will be available soon. I think for D2R there is no fair alternative. The load times are long and vary a lot depending on the system.
One thing that complicates time without loads timer is the fact that you can control your character during the loading screen. What would be a fair solution to this problem? We run into an issue where a longer load gives an advantage, because the runner can move further while the timer is paused.```
I would not be surprised if moving while in a loading screen is changed at some point. If it is not changed however giving a tiny advantage to those with older hardware probably would offset the use of higher resolution others get from superior hardware. I can easily see this becoming another -ns debate so if others with top of the line hardware could comment that would be welcome. 

```Should the timer be paused during cinematics?
Currently the timer pausing script that Wafu built also pauses during cinematics. It would take extra work to fix this. Would you rather have timer be paused during them or not? I would personally be fine with timer being paused during cinematics. It would give a fair resting point for all runners. It's good for our health.```
Yes BIG yes to this. Especially if you have to do funky things to skip the cinematics anyway. Seeing world records or big pbs fail due to fatigue gets annoying.

old vods from egg got deleted during the dmca stuff

Tradition is silly just for the sake of tradition it's quite obvious there would be more p1 runs submitted because they have been around much longer. How long did Nightfallx have to bitch to get Px/P8 added? And why did it take so long if it were not "just you" teo? He had been running those categories with no board to put them on for quite some time before he took it up with the mods here. I get the impression if he were not such a respected sorc player Px/P8 would have never been added.

If Px/P8 had been around for 8 years just the same as P1 you could have a stronger argument that popularity is the main reason. That is not the case here... Your argument starts off with an invalid premise. If Px/P8 submissions are equal to P1 across the length of time Px/P8 has existed then by using your logic would it not be fair to say they are all equal in popularity? Thus making that whole case pointless getting us right back to "we have always done it this way."

None of this is to say popularity SHOULD be the focus for keeping things the way they are anyways. The focus should be going fast and facilitating opportunity to runners to go fast. These "historical reasons" were obviously never about going fast... They were about playing the game how someone (or probably more accurate a few people) felt everyone else should play the game and then trying to come up with solutions to problems that should not exist in the first place. That's the long and the short of how the boards got in this situation. The longer you wait to fix issues about timing method, hc vs sc, or keeping track of player count the more data you end up needing to reconcile with later.

@Bender i quite like the idea of splitting rules based basically around sorc and non sorc categories

I saw no discussions just the results of how things were decided. Still no logic or reasoning to why though. If community involvement is happening away from speedrun.com you are likely losing out on people who have an opinion.

"As far as Minecraft leaderboards go, those are one of the worst leaderboards on this site, really not a good example" it is not a good example because...there are too many categories? I used the example to show how using the tabs for specific categories and then the black buttons underneath as a way to sort that categories board.

Right so we agree P1 is "worse" than a Px/8 run? Why do the boards not reflect that then? As far as cheating goes, is you argument because there are other ways to cheat there should not be Px in Any%? I still don't see any reason Px should have to be explicit in ANY% after all it is the fastest way to get experience thus the fastest way to kill baal. If anything p1/p8 (or whatever other slower strategies people want to use) are the ones that need to be explicit if they should even be their own category in the first place.

After looking around a bit it would seem to me that the way specific categories are being shown whoever setup the leaderboards was not aware of how other games use the site functions to separate categories or how they are defined. Currently the Sort functions are being used as a way to sub categorize certain options (like Softcore/Hardcore, Players 1/8/x, and Class) in an Any% run. Here are a couple of examples for how games with many options available in an Any% run setup their boards on speedrun.com: https://www.speedrun.com/mc https://www.speedrun.com/piggy https://www.speedrun.com/diablo. Even your own Misc categories have the boards setup similarly to the games above https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod#Seeded_Any_Normal https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod#Seeded_Any_Hell https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod#PreLoD. The only difference being the number of submissions to the Misc are far fewer than Any%. The tabs are the category distinction (Any% Normal and Any% Hell in the case of D2LOD) and the buttons under the tabs are used to sort the table based on the columns and the columns are options available to the runner. This way you don't have to click 5 different buttons to find a run. When I hit the Any% tab for D2LOD one would expect the fastest time to complete the game to be shown at the top of the table with what class, player setting, and core were used to achieve said time. I can see not all classes would use the exact same player setting, core or strategy to achieve the fastest result, but the times can still be compared to each other since the goal is the same — killing baal. Choosing a slower strategy for this goal shouldn't mean no comparison can be made between class or core as the times are ultimately the end all be all. As it stands the fastest run does not seem to be the focus....which is odd for a speedrun. It is of my opinion Px should just be Any% as that seems to have the lowest times across any other combinations of options available to a runner. Killing baal would be completed much faster if a sequence skip for the ancients quest were found to bypass the level requirement. Thus making how one manages experience efficiently as they progress through the run a massive factor in how fast baal dies. I'm sure there are those that will say using the player setting command is a cheat code or not intended by game devs but "Are there any single-player cheats in Diablo II? No, Diablo II does not have any cheats. While there are undoubtedly some hacks on the web that allow you to alter your character, these are neither supported nor condoned by Blizzard Entertainment." (http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/faq/general.shtml) would prove otherwise. It is feature that the game offers and by strategically using it you can save a lot of time in your run. Here is an old post on speedemos archive (https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/questions_about_diablo_2_any__rta.html last reply by moooh) with a possible counter argument to disallowing Px based on it being a way to change difficulty in the middle of the run essentially, but if the option is available to the runner as the game devs intended it should fit under the Any % distinction. This still ignores the fact that setting the player count scales experience/loot/hp linearly so there are strategic trade offs when altering the player count. I failed to find a compelling reason to forbid the runner from strategically choosing when to raise/lower the player setting if their goal was to kill baal the fastest. Furthermore it reduces the cluttered look the leaderboard currently exists as. With that being said what to do with the P1/P8 only runs? Obviously these are slower but there are many submissions and runners for these "challenge" – for a lack of a better term – runs but you don't throw them away. That would be unfair to those who run these types of runs. Instead they should have their own sort option for the given Any% Normal/Hell category easily facilitated with a column called Player Count. This brings me to an interesting side discussion....Should a P1/8 only run be compared to a Px run on the leader board? My opinion is yes for a few reasons: first because it does seem there are competitive P1 only times to Px when you select certain options like class and core. That alone can show how good a runner is... when they are not getting easier experience gains and still keeping up its impressive regardless of other options chosen. Second the runner would then have the option to stay at p1/8 if they get an amazing start to a run or see something that gives them the opportunity to compete with Px times and change what submission type they want to pursue. Third and probably most relevant to moderators – validation.... How in the world do you verify someone didn't use the player count without going over every second of a 1+ hour long run?? If people want to try to get away with something in a run that would be quite easy to miss. Thus leaving the P1/P8 challenge type run an option left for the runner to decide as they see fit. In the same hand there is the hardcore vs softcore choice and how those options affect the final time. This distinction isn't as consistent from the available runs in determining how fast a run is as setting the player count, but as I see it hardcore should theoretically be slower than softcore because of death warping tactically in combination with portal usage to get quest items or countess loot. Any % should mean using any particular strategy or option to the runner to complete the goal (killing baal in this case) as fast as possible. That last part just doesn't seem to be the main focus and I found that odd was all. D2 is a game of decisions, game knowledge and mechanics giving runners as many chances to be flexible in an attempt to adapt to what the game gives just makes sense to me. I look forward to hearing what the logic was when first setting up the boards because a long time ago people thought Hell barb/necro just were not possible in an RTA style run and well... we know that to be wrong now. Hopefully that all made sense and I apologize for the wall of text.