Regarding any% and Lonewolf. To break it down any% means anything and Lonewolf means Lonewolf though any% can, correct me if I'm wrong, ban certain runs because it would break the game/category and instead opt for its own category. In some ways, any% is probably regarded as no major glitches in all but name but if I had to guess I'd say any% varies from game to game. I don't mind, I only brought it up because I sought clarity before grinding a whole load of runs only to find "sorry these aren't valid". One could argue that default is 'normal mode' for the game like NG and Lonewolf is a certain mode which is specialised. Perhaps consider it as another difficulty mode.

To recap, in my opinion. File1 has 2/5 maps that benefit from ai with plot items, 2 I'd say don't matter either way and the 5th...well it probably would be a hinderance (Hive where the AI can mess with Leachman and trigger boss animations). I'm less familiar with File2 but I don't recall any maps that are hindered by ai and would more likely benefit you. Based on my take on the maps it would probably be better to separate Lonewolf and default but I'm happy to side with the majority. It would also mean Lonewolf and VH being valid as opposed to not (regardless of the useless of AI).

On the subject of Lonewolf, if it's not mentioned anywhere to explicitly say Very hard or Lonewolf VH. Just so it's clear to everyone, especially new folks. I really don't think people would want Lonewolf for easy-hard. I'd be fine with it but would side with the majority of likely reserving it just for VH.

I'm not sure on the details regarding past submissions though that isn't important. The point or question I'm making is should very hard runs offline be with AI or not?

The reason I ask is that I'm fairly sure at some point I submitted runs where I was on my own for VH but were rejected because it made the lone wolf category obsolete.

For example. In Outbreak having AI can be a burden because you can't start the final cutscene until everyone alive is on screen and AI can (and have) wandered off.

Any runs I may have had don't match the rules anymore anyway so I'll need to start afresh but in the event of future submissions, I'd like clarity over very hard vs lone wolf run requirements. As I look at the boards, there are runs that are essentially lone wolf under very hard but if going solo is faster than with AI then you have redundant categories.

This, of course, doesn't affect character type or melee but any% runs would be.

Thank you.

Seems my PAL ps3 can't play REOB2 online at least unless I jailbreak it and make it work with JP version. Something I'm probably not prepared to do for this one game even if the console is old and outside warranty. Still offline would be open to all with the mention of what version they run and Jp can of course have online to themselves. Unless anyone knows how anyone can play online, I may well have set things up wrong. It says my connection is fine but when I try to log in the DNS authentication fails.

If a console section is to be made then that brings in to the equation versions. I don't know how much it will vary but we're dealing with an old game so PAL/NTSC will mean 50 vs 60 fps and I know that can make a big difference as runs get longer or every second counts in shorter runs.

Language has also been known to affect times. REOB has little scrolling text but it's something that should be realised if you're going to go down this path.

File 2 had data transfer you could use from file1. Not saying this is a no no or further rules just this might need looking at as it's been so long since I've touched it. I think it just means you don't have to buy file1 stuff in file2 in which case that's okay just unlock it or transfer it and you're done. File 3 would still be a no no.

PS2 and PS3 can also be an issue...I highly doubt this but again, just for the sake of future proofing, have it as an option.

Nothing can really be done about hardware if someone has a SSD then not a lot can be done though it should be an option people tick so people can see why someone may be faster (and not a cheater).

Sadly PAL (or maybe just EU) REOB1 users can't play online. We never got that feature. Only NTSC I think would be a REOB1 submittable run online.

If I think of any other console related points I'll add them here but anyone else may want to see how other games deal with console runs. This wasn't really explored much that I can remember because splitting emu and console was almost rejected straight away so before diving in this needs careful planning. I'm not saying we have more categories for ssd/hdd and pal/ntsc but at least raise it and have them as selectable options so I personally who is for example 5th place can say "I'm the fastest pal user or hdd user" and everyone can see the wr holder has ssd ntsc so has some advantage.

In short, EMU and console need their own specific rules (emu can be more liberal now and console needs it's own set of rules though their will be overlap).

P.S. I just loaded my REOB1 and REOB2 on my PS3 and it came up immediately with this option to play in NTSC 60 fps which I can as I'm playing it through my pc monitor. That means that most/all people should be able to play in 60fps so this point is null and void but still my above points stand. Certain criteria should be set when submitting runs.

My whole relationship with REOB and speedrunning it stems from the drama that happened last year both directly (burnt out) and indirectly through my team having their own reasons for not wanting to run. I'll leave that statement at that because I won't speak for others and the drama was long ago so no need to bring it up again. Removing all my/team runs will likely always be a questionable decision but it's done so no point dwelling on it, I moved on.

I can't do anything about the online runs and as for offline I just found myself doing other things but in short, the drama left me with no interest at all to run. The rule changes weren't the reason per se but once I got burnt out it, it became the norm and that might be the same for others. I tried to stimulate motivation to run again but I got the impression people had other things they'd rather do and had no desire to run again, nothing about the rule changes though that doesn't seem to be the case apparently but I digress.

Part of me just hasn't cared what happens, give me a set of rules and someday I'll try and get back into running but I have other priorities now and I'd rather do that especially when my team shows no interest in doing runs online. I even asked others who showed some activity and they had stopped for now (again nothing about rules being an issue). If I could do runs again online and have fun with others I think I'd probably be back at it regardless of the rules as long as they don't keep changing.

Constant rule changes is going to become a growing reason not to come back for me because I actually got as far as setting up REOB on my new pc and set up the controller overlay+tracker. If I want to produce a good quality stream and runs that meet the rules I want consistency and not have to keep changing my overlay every time a change is made that requires me to change. There comes a point where we may not be happy with the rules but if the points have been brought up and the mods have their say then I follow it. It sounded like Max was aware of the pros and cons and in the end, made his judgement. Changing the rules yet again also means there will be so many versions of speedruns that newer runs can't compete with older runs or older runs getting away with things that are no longer allowed.

I volunteered to be a mod and put it to the community that if they weren't happy I'd step down. Despite my efforts, it just fueled the drama and negatively affected me so I stepped down and have no desire currently to volunteer again especially given I've been inactive in the running of the game. Others have volunteered but dropped out or were later removed but I'm sure Max will add more mods as they deem it fit. Verification of runs is a topic of debate. One of the reasons the drama blew up was because runs were sat on for months and then dumped en mass for verification with a community that was subpar and poorly equipped to handle it. This then precipitated a need to review the rules and runs put on hold. Had runs been submitted when they were set we'd likely not be in this situation but we are.

I had a hard time following everything you said when it could have been more condensed. I got the overall gist of what you said and I think separating emu and console was brought up but I recall the reason being vaguely along the lines of more categories to mod and more mess to sort out on a board that has mixed emu and console for so long. The mods are going to be the ones to run this new show in their free time and Max sounds like he's worked hard to do what he has with lots of stuff going on rl so I'd rather work with him in implementing the rules he's set. Ideally, it sounds like the only way to fix the impasse is to split emu and console and having a tracker for console but that will mean going through old runs and determining which version they are and I don't know if the console version will have problems with PAL and NTSC, language used etc. Having my ps3 streamable means it might be fun running emu and console but if the rules are constantly in flux I'm just going to continue sitting on the fence and waiting for things to set in place.

So don't think I'm anti or pro your case Rose, I'm just having a hard time caring when I haven't regained my interest after the drama, other stuff is going on that I'm giving my attention and people who I would run with don't seem to want to run regardless of the rules which they had a hand in coming up with.

Lot of rambling but I think that's all thus far so see what others say. I'll go with the consensus and eventually run again even if it means offline only but not if the rules keep changing.

My 10 year old pc could handle REOB on EMU so I'm pretty sure anything you have will handle it too. Had to set it all up again in the last week due to a pc upgrade and everything works as it should.

Well I guess the answer was later...much later. A year on I'd like to try and attempt a FF5 speedrun but I really only have the means to run Steam and EMU and Steam is probably the most straight forward to play as it's already set up.

Since there are no rules in place it would be worthwhile to know what the rules are before even attempting a competitive run. If Steam is a no go then perhaps a recommendation on which category would be the next best thing?

The emulator most/all use, PCXS I think, has a window called the console which displays what the emulator is doing. This includes information like turbo and save state use. The mods want PC users to show this so people can't use things like save states which could easily be hidden from the mods.

I tend to use a ps4 controller when playing on PC I doubt anyone uses a joystick or keyboard.

Unless I missed a meeting this has been done without any of the active mod's approval so someone has decided to go over everyone else's heads and appoint someone who has shown complete disregard for the drama that is going on. Already have 3 mods against it and we're being told to be transparent and communicate.

This needs resolving immediately one way or another.

Okay unicoy just glancing at your post and getting the gist of it tells me one thing that i can never be respected by you as a mod and will always be a Hurriboy yes man. Being an active runner that is always acts as you do and who can't be reasoned with despite trying my best I don't really see any reason I can be a mod if this is how it's going to be. You only see what you see and state it as fact, complaining and portraying your side of events not even bothering to try and see differing points of view and accept that you don't always get to have your way. In case you were wondering, it was me fighting your corner for why your runs perhaps shouldn't be rejected but I don't know why I bothered. You seem to have considered me an enemy before you met me all because I knew hurriboy. I don't see how talking with you is going to help it would just prolong the drama I didn't sign up for. I had my doubts it was right to mod but I tried and already I feel like it's not worth it and would be surprised if anyone would.

Liv, I'm willing to discuss this with you privately but not here and it should be clear why. This behaviour is the reason partly why things are the way they, it should not be allowed and I am not willing to stay a mod if this is how it's going to be indefinitely. This has gone on for a month at least and I've not even been a mod that long. I'm going to try and resolve this but I'm not going to let this start affecting my health.

Quick P.S.

Note that unicoy hasn't once mentioned me by name since being made a mod, only Hurriboy's friend. He has either inferred or outright stated as fact that this means I'll back Hurriboy and whatever he says goes but this couldn't be further from the truth. The mods have spoken privately about the pending runs after it was announced publicly they were and we were hoping to make a public response by a mod that's not me or Hurriboy because I felt it would not be appropriate given this bad blood but the mod in charge of it who didn't know the depth of the problem is understandably uncomfortable and if need be I'll post but sufficed to say I made sure reasons for not rejecting runs were brought up and made sure everyone was able to make a decision without both sides of the story and that any decision was come to fairly.

Hello Liv. I'll try and say everything in one post and may go off from your post but it's relevant so sorry in advance I'll try to keep it short.

Your points;

1. Fair point, however, since I didn't personally add this rule, I'm not sure what the person behind the idea had in mind.

2. I'm not sure I fully understand where the problem with livesplits is. If you're suggesting the mods need to time the runs by watching the video then I can see there being a difference of opinion on the time. In REOB (sorry if you know this I'm just making it clear as I understand it) that times can be in seconds and when the run starts vs finishes means it could be 0.25s off a full second but gets rounds done. Putting the mods in a position where they have to set a time themselves which could vary by 1-2s that could decide whether a new record is set or not will be controversial given some mods are competitors to and as you may have seen there has been drama already. I myself stated a fact not directed at anyone and @unicoy called me out for accusing him and his team of cheating when I don't even know who is on his team (citation at https://www.speedrun.com/reobf1/thread/lhc87).

3. Rule changes have been discuss at length (see https://www.speedrun.com/reobf1/thread/aavnh). We've not discussed much behind closed doors only in the sense that we put together what we proposed and listened to the community. Where we felt the rules could be changed (like stick figures) we amended it and to minimise/avoid problems in the future we really felt the new rules were necessary. Not everyone is going to be happy with the rules, we get that, however, some members here have been more than just critical of changes (see 2. where we were discussing the rules some of the backlash we got over rules members didn't like but also backlash for rules we didn't implement).

4. I read @unicoys response and I don't think he gave you the full picture. The first run submitted was on 5th Oct 2018, date submitted 1st March this year, 6 months (though I'll readily accept that this drama started a month ago (based on hurriboys post though don't know the exact date. That's 5 months which some of us were quietly critical of. Unicoy has given his reasons which I personally take issue with which I feel should be said I can go in to if you request it but now isn't the time. The fact is these 15 runs were dumped on mass and another 29 the next day AFTER Hurriboy posted no more submissions which caused the drama we're still in it seems. Why the delay then? Because there has been discussions privately by the mods (this was after it was discussed publicly on the forums about runs submitted at Hurrboy's post). At the time, Hurriboy was on his own, then it took time to get the community in order, then mods were chosen including myself and finally we were ready to tackle the issue of the runs submitted after Hurriboy's post. He complains about 1 month wait but he can sit on runs for 5 months and expect them done....he didn't mention this it seems.

5. I feel we have been transparent and that's why there's been a backlash over the rules. The threads are there for all to read so I'll let you decide how people reacted, I'm not going to point fingers but I think it's fairly clear to anyone reading and that's just this forum. I'm not 100% sure if Hurriboy announced (pretty sure he did) that runs made after the post (apparently all 29 File 2 runs were pending until it was decided what to do). I feel as mods we need to lead and put things like this to the community and listen, not just let the community do it on their own and that's what we've done.

As for Unicoy's post you linked;

I am no personal friend of Hurriboy, or the other members in my team, we get on online and run together and that's it and as moderator I'm here because I felt Hurriboy could trust me to do the job well and I don't take bias. I've addressed the runs pending for so long. I honestly feel reading this (and I expect Unicoy will prosecute me for this) that he only see's things from his point of view and if he perceives an attack (like accusing him of cheating) he'll lash out before maybe coming back and toning down his response and maybe an apology. To be more specific to earlier, his responses are largely very aggressive/defensive or "I don't like it and you're not listening/you're dictating".

Due to the perceived nature of Unicoy I've advised diplomacy and any attempt to aggravate the situation but the accusation of cheating (before I became a mod) shows that merely being associated with Hurriboy and being a competitive runner to Unicoy and his team instantly makes me guilty by association which is why my first post as moderator implied I'll be one unless people take issue with it because without the community's trust I won't be good at my role (that's me putting the community first and Ill step down with immediate effect if enough people wish it).

The stick rule HAS been removed and was in the updated rules (though got rolled back due to an issue with the website. There is no rule regarding 480p that I can see having checked a few so unless someone can tell me where this is, I can't fix it or explain it. If I were in Unicoy's position I'd have posted here and said "Hello, for the rules of xxxx, it says xxxx is this correct and here is why I think it's wrong". Instead he gives effectively a rant from his own point of view with how he see's things saying I accused him of cheating and how I'm friends with Hurriboy like that's reason enough. He asks why he wsasn't chosen to be a mod. I'd say his behaviour is proof enough.

I left Unicoy's runs deliberately because there was a massive backlog (15+29 backed up runs makes a big backlog and 29 were pending because Hurriboy wanted mods so that a consensus could be made and not him just making decisions on his own. Yes he can admit he took too long but he'd be damned if he does it on his own, damned for his mod choice, damned for discussing with mods in private, it seems like the only thing that would make Unicoy happy is make him mod and I doubt him and Hurriboy would get on well enough and probably me. I've not made an enemy of Unicoy but his attitude on this forum especially makes me feel we'd not get on as mods.

...I'm sorry but it's late and a lot has been said so I'll say I've not covered everything I wanted to say and if I can try and reply asap. All I can end with is Liv is do your job as I believe you can and have done. I've done my best to keep this post factual but to the point. Unicoy has had his chance to give his side of the story without us interjecting so if you want to speak to us Liv you are more than welcome to here if you wish or privately.

We're pretty much ready to finalise the rules with the devil being in the details only and no fundamental changes. I've been reviewing runs in advance which I feel are quick and easy to tick off to get the backlog down and give the mods with less time to focus on the others so expect to see runs verified over the coming days.

I'm not sure where this issue over timers is coming from. The Tracker only works with IGT, Online has to be RTA doesn't it? This means a manual timer has to be used. All existing online times are submitted as RTA so to change it now is going to really throw a spanner in the works. Yet to really look at other people's runs but when I split using a manual timer I get it as close to the specified start/end times as possible. Start times are easy and most end times are too though some like DT are random. As a matter of principle I try and get as close as I can BUT if I split late and I'm a fraction over a whole second I submit it as a second quicker and state it in the comments and let the mods decide.

RTA is a thing and is commonplace in speedruns so this question over their accuracy and legitimacy is perplexing unless I'm missing the point.

As for Sticks, I voiced the opinion that I couldn't see a good reason other than the forum post about it to keep it, many had said scrap it so I updated the rules accordingly.

As for cheaters I feel we've had maybe one cheater and it was one time and part of a team. It just never felt worth it to ban any player that cheated, it was safer and simpler to just start fresh along with the rules update. However, people don't forget cheaters and so teams will naturally think twice or avoid cheaters and solo their runs would face extra scrutiny.

Still listening to PS2 recording (I agree it's more wording the rules) and segregation of EMU and PS2 though the latter I'm not warm to the idea right now.

Hi everyone, thank you Hurriboy for inviting me to be a moderator and I hope the community itself will be happy with me being a moderator too.

I've looked over the rules currently posted under Outbreak; View Rules and have revised them based off of what I've seen discussed that were applicable to the rules. The document Hurriboy linked is universal, it's not meant for any one category and is being tweaked here and there but essentially it's in a sufficiently revised state to put it back to the community without having to look over a growing thread. The only thing I've not addressed is PS2 record quality which I felt should be put to people in the forums specifically and especially PS2 users.

If anything is still unclear I'll do my best to address it and am open to any more changes the community brings up.

As Hurriboy is currently the only mod I feel it's best that input be focused on what is necessary to reboot the community so things can get going again. Whether a category exist or not is irrelevant, it affects no one except the people who choose to do it. Don't like it then don't do it as Hurriboy has pointed out. I get how nightmare is the same as VH, however, one can argue any hit is bad even on easy because time loss is the enemy not the health loss. Easy means you can take the hit and not rip but it's a rip run if you're 2s slow because of a zombie grab.

Allowable characters, yes that's something to address now but if I mod has taken the suggestion on board and isn't prepared to do anything about it now AND when people openly admit that allowing banned characters under file1 for example wouldn't be a problem as people wouldn't want to pick those characters....then why the fuss to remove a ban which people aren't affected by? Hurriboy can choose to do a poll when he's got things in order if people really insist on making changes but please let's keep the priority on a working community then we can make changes when more mods are on board to help.

There is a way to emulate a game that's installed on your hard drive (as opposed to emulating a DVD). This cuts down loading times but in offline times are based on in game time and the in game time stops during cutscenes and loading screens.

I'm not aware of a discrepancy between EMU and PS2 but online is based on RTA whereas offline is based on ingame. This might explain for the discrepancy.

http://obsrv.org/index.php

There might be the info you seek.

Ms Stick characters don't exist in File1 but that's more a nit pick. Can't choose them, cant cheat with them.