"It also allows us to accept videos that were split into multiple parts due to numerous reasons including (but not limited to): "

Gameplay being missing for any of those reasons actually sounds like a pretty good reason for a flat reject rather than burdening the entire process with a weird timer rule.

This would be how like, just about every other leaderboard on the entire website does it.

"We've had this rule in effect ever since the Google Docs days because we have numerous community members who suffer from poor internet connections and would still like to be able to be inclusive towards them. "

let's be real here, this is basically just sonic

On a fundamental level though, this is way less of a problem now than it might've been ages ago. Connections generally have just gotten faster and better and more consistent for people. It's not much of an issue now and is going to be less of an issue as time continues to pass. Most other leaderboards adapted accordingly with a new technology standard. KH hasn't. I don't agree with the reasoning why at all.

"We can't simply say "well why don't you just local record" either, because some runners' computers aren't powerful enough to stream and local record. "

Actually, you totally can? Most leaderboards do, actually for much the same reasons I just outlined above. Computers have gotten better, it's a fairly safe assumption for like 99% of people they're going to have a computer that can pull it off.

I dunno why KH is seemingly the only one willing to handicap the process for the sake of accepting runs with missing gameplay or exceptionally dodgy quality. That seems like a step /backwards/, not forwards.

It's 2017, man. We ain't on google docs anymore. We got computers and internet connections that can handle this shit.

"that strawpoll was voted on by the mods, not the general community."

Ok well that's /worse/ then, but sure.

"Understand something before criticizing it."

oops pardon me for not being psychic

"So, that isn't preventing anything."

Then....where is it?? If that rule isn't a consideration, what's actually stopping it now? It's been months.

"then we shouldnt accept runs were a person's stream went down because twitch screwed up"

Probably, yes. Missing gameplay seems like a pretty good reason to reject a run.

but yeah i agree with the thrust of the post that meticulously watching the entire thing to check for any frameskipping at all is kind of a ludicrously impractical drain on moderator time. Logistically impossible.

"Second, it is the person's video so therefore it is there responsibility."

Not really, no. The entire point of having moderators is to verify and double check and be the bookkeepers of this shit. That's what the job position entails, that's what that is. If you're entrusting that to the runners, you might as well disable verification entirely and just trust people. Nobody wants that, so no, that's absurd.

"At that point, it is just people being lazy who dont want to do it."

No, it's laziness on the part of the leaderboard mods being unwilling to time it. That's the point of having responsibility. It's extra work, it's a job. If you don't want to do it, that's fine, find someone who does. There's plenty of willing people.

"It's a rule to help make LB mods job easier."

It /helps/, but it shouldn't be an outright necessity. A run is a run, it doesn't need a timer to be valid. If you're unwilling to take on the extra work, why moderate a video game? This is also the only leaderboard I've found with this rule. Bigger games manage just fine, ya'll can keep up, I believe in you.

"You people treat LB mods like dogs and that they are here to just serve you. Why is it so hard to meet them halfway?"

Because this is dumb special snowflake bullshit that no other speedgame in existence exhibits including ones way bigger than this.

" If you dont put a timer on your video then it would take much longer to verify runs"

Take on more mods. WILLING mods. About three quarters of the mods don't really verify runs and you can prove this by looking at the moderator activity spreadsheet on The Site forum. If you're overwhelmed, you need to take on more staff, you don't dumb down the process.

"Saying it is their "job" to do this is ignorant because it is not their job to hold everybody's hand and walk them through how to submit runs."

It IS their job to verify runs and make sure they're accurately timed though. That's literally what the position entails. This rule foists it off onto the runners.

This is bad because runners are fuckups and make mistakes all the time with this stuff, so you moderate and fix it, so you might as well drop the rule. You're going to have to do the work anyway unless you like timings being off by errant seconds every run or so.

P.S Passive aggressive tweets on twitter do no solve problems. Do not be a bitch.

I have nothing to add other than the timer rule is really silly and bad and I can't think of a reason for its existence at all other than entrusting the burden of proper timing to the runner, which isn't how the moderation dynamic is supposed to work.

Jesus christ Sly.

But yes, that illustrates the point quite nicely tbh. Just give the dude his damn category. It's fastest hardware, he did a run. The rule of "needs 2 runs (so DJ can't get viewers to request)" is impossible to read as anything other than being weirdly spiteful to DJ in light of Sly's posts where categories with 1 or 0 runs get made all the time.

P.S I didn't vote in that strawpoll (with its amazingly representative sample size of NINE PEOPLE wowowowow) and if I had the vote of "allow/don't allow" would've been 50/50 so chalk that up if you want.

To kind of unpack the flurry of a run-on paragraph in Sly's post (that shit is really hard to read, man):

"or take the rule away I do not understand how is it "hard" for a mod to look at the beginning and ending and timing it them selfs which is just the basic of what they could do."

The timer rule is dumb and bad and I have no idea how its survived this long. Not really a topic for this thread, but still. +1.

"Also i might as well mention it but as far as i can tell Sonicshadowsilver2 publicly tweeted that one of his runs times is not valid because his videos of his ps4 runs skip"

Tweets in question: https://twitter.com/Sonicshadowsil2/status/852755676833042432

Having been shown one of the runs in question:

(at 3:15 ish)

Observe how it skips like three full seconds and then freezes for many seconds and otherwise frameskips all over the place. This /was/ on the leaderboard and the timing is probably wildly off from just timing it off the VoD. Again, not really a topic for this thread, but probably bears looking into.

Kinda felt the need to clarify Sly's own points because I got the feeling it'd just ignored in that giant hard-to-read block of text.

it's OK I PB'ed and the audio's actually there this time 4Head

just so we're keeping score though:

number of cheaters/frauds/whatever stopped by rule: 0 number of legitimate runners slightly inconvenienced by it: I count 4 but there's probably more.

That being said, my intention with submitting was kinda just being cheeky. I was not really trying to fuck with the moderation or set them up to fail and I feel bad my bullshit is giving people a window to pile more crap onto Carci's plate.

don't get me wrong I still don't like the rule for much of the reasons illustrated but uh, sorry? For however much that's worth?

any% is dead again

damn dude i got SNITCHED

I completely fucked up the audio mixing and didn't think to double check until the lucas TV cutscene, so the audio didn't get recorded before that point. It's probably not a mistake I'd make twice. I then just submitted anyway because:

1.) the rule sucks cock and I've made it known I think it's dumb as fuck before 2.) Runs with muted/music/random errors get through literally all the time and I kinda just wanted to press my luck. Worse that happens they tell me no.

so yeah I just made a mistake with the capture and just tried anyway, I will now wax lyrical about why it shouldn't matter for about three paragraphs.

As a sidenote, I think it's a fairly strong argument against the rule if nobody can actually be arsed to enforce it properly. That and we're at a point with the game where like, basically none of the runners like the rule, especially the top ones? Can I call myself top? Does top 5 count as top? Either way it's kinda fucked that we're dealing with a rule most of us don't like because just "said so"? That ain't how community-mod relationship is supposed to work.

Meanwhile, runs where facecams, splits and other idiot streaming shit are obscuring large portions of the game feed there is no rule against and would all be verified without question despite that being probably /worse/ than a lack of audio. I actually had a difficult time learning NG Easy off the WR because the guy put his facecam such that it completely obscured his fucking ammo count. That crap is fine, but woah man don't fuck with that audio.

for the record I'm not saying those things should be banned either (although please don't be that guy with the fucking facecam over his ammo count ffs) but mainly just highlighting how similar "obscuring the game" occurs on a visual level and nobody cares, but audio is the highly prized thing. Fuckin why?

Especially since the rule is so goddamn arbitrary and meaningless "only game and mic". Why is mic allowed, but music not? Because streamers use mic, that's basically the only reason. If I use a mic and just drown out the game audio by yelling into it the entire time, I'm not in strict violation of the rule despite definitely being in violation of the spirit.

also just about everytime I've told this rule to anyone from any other speedrun community they always go "Why?" or express confusion that such a thing exists

It's a bad fuckin rule. It looks bad from the outside looking in, it feels bad from the inside interacting with it. It's flawed in the way it's written, it's pointlessly restrictive to its runners, the community for the game largely doesn't want it, it doesn't actually really stop people from frauding runs, mods don't actually seem that interested in enforcing it anyway and places a totally arbitrary importance on audio over a clean game capture feed for no reason I can work out other than "because that's the personal pet-peeve of the game moderation".

what's probably going to happen tho is I'm going to get a retroactive reject and fuck-all else. Yay. What an exciting world I live in where tradition for tradition's sake is largely overriding the active will of the people running the shitting thing.

any% is dead

^ I would define it less as a matter of trust and more a matter of double-checking. Most of the stuff I do as a mod does not generally entail rejecting fraudulent runs or enforcing rules, but fixing people's fuckups when submitting, wrong platform, wrong time, some detail of submission. That sort of thing.

It's easy to make that sort of mistake yourself and have it go through live if you self-verify and you don't get a second pair of eyeballs to check it. That's the actual good reason to not want to self-verify, not because of mutual suspicion, but because everyone makes slight errors.

"The game isn't finished yet"

and there ya go

Leaderboards for games that aren't finished are dumb. Be patient.

I like a good april fools joke but fucking around with boards and submitting fraudulently is pretty boring and is just gonna make a mess. Don't do that shit.

I've gotten it on windows 10 but I'm not a stellar judge since I've never been great at that trick. Usually get 2-3 shots.

Nobody really has any idea, it just sort of occurs whenever the fuck.

Yeah, let's get this back on track. My original point is kinda being drowned out by this pointless, petty debate I'm having with an apparent racist so I may as well just ignore it.

Sorry for shitting up this thread by arguing with a retard for as long as I have. I should really know better.

I already made my point to organisers in this thread and on the ESA discord, so I'll just drop it, my voice has been heard and now I'm just thread-shitting. Mods, feel free to delete this retarded excursion if you like for actual questions about cuts to happen.

yep we have just descended into outright racism

That's a new one. Well done?

This comment has been redacted by the moderator team because it contained offensive slurs.

it's ok guys forum user "alowishus" has decided that it is disrespectful to level any form of critique, no matter how politely you do it for the consideration of ESA staff members.

I'm so glad this visionary has enlightened me that I clearly should just never speak about anything I think is a problem.

what a completely useless opinion to have, why don't you roll over so I can stamp on the other side of your face?

I wasn't aware raising any point whatsoever about stuff related to the way ESA handles the submission process was "disrespectful". Pretty much exactly the opposite, I think ESA staff are capable of making good improvements in response to feedback which is why I even bothered saying my piece in the first place, if I thought they were dumb and I didn't respect them, I wouldn't even bother.

also lol at "I'm going to say something really stupid and then say he's triggered and has hurt feelings when he tells me I'm stupid XD".

Fuck off, mate. This kind of trolling is boring and has no place when trying to make a legit point. Either make a counter-argument, or shut up.