I am very busy with school work this week, but once I'm free, I can watch your video and try to give any advice I can to help you get your sub 9, and maybe even farther than that. If you stream your runs, I can go to your stream and give you advice while you're doing runs.

I pretty much started this alone, but nearly as soon as I started, circumstances, including horrendous internet, pretty much made it nearly impossible to continue working on it (it would sometimes take about 5-10 minutes per run just to re-time the video). At that point, I asked for help, and KM and Zapp were the two that came and finished the rest of the transfer, so a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE thank you to the two of you. I'm sorry I couldn't help with finishing the transferring, but... well, you saw how bad my internet is.

<(^o^)>

A lot of things were still labelled under the "test" name, like "Version Test" as the category filter for all the versions, etc. It should be all good now.

I didn't realize that's all it was. In that case, we don't need another leaderboards at all. Thank you for the reply <(^o^)>

Sorry for the bump, but in the "The Site" forum list, it showed that this post was created 48 years ago (Dec 31, 1969), so it was near the bottom of the list. Bumping so that this hopefully shows up.

Hello, I am pikashy, a supermod and WR holder for all "main" categories for Super Smash Bros 64.

Smash 64 already exists on the leaderboards here: https://www.speedrun.com/ssb64/full_game (I am a supermod and WR holder for all "main" categories). However, it has been requested by several runners (with no objections) to change the board layout to a "table" format (similar to https://www.speedrun.com/wr64 ). We have already outlined the majority of what we want on the leaderboards. The only remaining decisions we need to make depend on what is possible to do on this site (most notably if there is a way to have a drop down menu that can let you select a different version to display on the table).

As far as I understand, due to the complete layout change we plan on making, at the current moment, we would have to remove every run from the leaderboards, make the changes, then put all the runs back on. Given the large number of runs submitted (including obsoleted runs), I was looking for a better solution.

I was thinking of having a "new" leaderboards in place so that we can make the changes, then transfer the runs over once we're happy with the changes we have in place. Once everything is transferred over, we'd delete the old leaderboards, and continue with the new one.

If there is an easy way to do these changes without making a new leaderboard, I am open to trying out any other method. If not, is it possible to create a "new" leaderboard while we make the changes?

Note: We've tried this once before, trying to use a new leaderboards to make a change. However, one of the runners involved in that leaderboard making process (leaving the name anonymous) wanted changes to go his way, so he did his own thing, and then submitted everything with an incomplete leaderboards, resulting in two leaderboards for probably close to a year. This won't happen this time, as we already know what we want to have, so the transition should be rather quick.

Thank you for any help you are able to offer

pikashy

<(^o^)>

The leaderboards currently do not have a way to submit iQue runs, whether on console or emulator.

The smash 64 community had a HUGE problem when iQue was first introduced in the community, eventually causing massive drama that led to internal conflicts, and many runners outright quitting (myself included for a time). I highly doubt that the iQue will be accepted on the leaderboards in any format, as the problems of the past are ones I don't think anyone wants to go through again.

The run ends on the final hit of Master Hand as soon as soon as the hit occurs, regardless of when you end your splits. Most runners have a final split on the last hit. A couple of runners (me included) have an end split at the end of the credits, but the time of the run is still the moment the last hit on Master Hand occurs. So when you choose to have the last split is up to personal preference, and doesn't affect the end result of the run.

It's the same thing for splitting between each stage. Most runners split as soon as "GAME SET!" shows up on the screen, while a couple runners (again, me included, I'm a rebel Kappa ) split as soon as the announcer screen starts for the next character. It's all personal preference on when you wish to split.

In the end, while everyone has splits set up a different way, time always starts as soon as you press start on the character select screen, and ends the moment the last hit on Master Hand occurs. The way splits are set up within that is entirely up to personal preference

To build on what Ghillie said, several other games hide emulator runs by default for the exact reasons he said. It's just to be fair to console runners.

(edit: at the time of me making this, RubberDuckyAssassin’s post was the last post made, so this response was made not including the posts that came after it, but I will make an edit at the bottom to include those)

I had no intention on calling you a criminal in any way, and you never did anything that could be called a crime. Why you turned my post into a legal issue is beyond me (aside from a very easy way to make me look bad for no reason, and to essentially dismiss everything I said in this post). However, the way you have been treating me over the last 3 years has been horrible, and me calling it similar to being a bully is not too far off in my opinion. You target me when things don’t go your way. You flame me, shame me, and even try to turn people against me or paint me in a bad light, if I don’t do what you want. If something goes wrong, even if I had nothing to do with it, you often seem to throw me under the bus.

I have spoken to other active runners over the years (when they were active, that is). Some of them have mentioned to me that they are scared to say something against you, because if they do, you’ll treat them the way you treat me. So if you wonder why I’m the only person ever speaking up against you when I disagree with what you say, maybe it’s because they’re scared, and honestly, I don’t blame them. If I was in their situation, I’d be doing the same. I prefer to avoid conflict any chance I get. Unfortunately, you’ve already targeted me as the “villain” of the community, so it doesn’t matter at this point.

In this post, I will respond to 2 sentences you made in your last wall of text:

“I have shown a willingness to compromise from my positions again and again throughout the 3 years of version inclusion discussion and the evidence is in these forums, don't take it from me look it up. I changed my position repeatedly and you haven't made a single compromise.”

To anyone who has no idea what has happened in the history of the decision making for the smash 64 speedrunning community, that comment makes you look like the hero of the community, and me the villain. In those two sentences, you literally discredited almost everything I said in this whole thread, and anything I ever said in any discussion.

You’re telling me to look it up? I will. This whole post is a response to that, going through the entire history of decision making in the smash 64 speedrunning community, since I joined it three and a half years ago. Not only is your statement a complete lie, the roles are reversed. I have been the one who has tried to compromise, and you are the one who never did.

1. In-Game Time vs Real Time.

When I first entered the community, everyone was running in-game time, and doing races with the timer off. When I noticed how the in-game timer works, I immediately thought it was a horrible timing system, so I didn’t use it, and used real time instead. I also discovered that by turning the timer off, you could save a second per stage in the bonuses. I told people about it, and encouraged it in races. Everyone was in agreement with it. Everyone… except you. It took about a month before you finally agreed that real time was a better timing method than in-game time. That whole month, you tried to convince people to stay on in-game time, but everyone had already transitioned over. Even when you transferred over, it seemed you still didn’t agree with it. You were not willing to compromise.

2. The iQue.

To anyone who has been in the community around 2 years ago, either as a runner or as a viewer, they know the story. But for those who are new, I’ll say it. I’m separating it into several paragraphs due to how long this story is.

You made it obviously clear that you are trying to collect every version of the game, so getting the iQue was obvious. However, why you chose to run on the iQue, I don’t think anyone really knows for sure. Anyways, that doesn’t matter. The point is, you were doing runs on the iQue, and version legality became an issue. I’ll start from the beginning, before you even got the iQue.

OoT discovered the iQue, and some runners were starting to use it. It saved time due to not lagging. This is very obvious on the Tower Collapse cutscene, where the audio doesn’t even come close to finishing before the cutscene is over. The price ($200) was more than most runners were willing to pay for it. Immediately, it caused a split on whether or not version legality should be allowed. I was watching a fair bit of OoT from several runners at the time, and their opinions were completely split, some to the point of aggressive hatred for the other side. Overall, it had a massive negative effect on the OoT speedrunning community.

You announced that you were going to buy the iQue and try doing runs on it. Immediately, before you even purchased the iQue, I suggest we have a discussion on its legality. My fear was that the iQue would split the smash 64 speedrunning community just as it did the OoT community. People were busy, people were lazy, I don’t know what happened, but we weren’t able to get a full discussion in before you got the iQue. We should have had the legality discussion then, but you started doing runs before we even had a chance to do so. Once you started doing runs, and people realized how much better the iQue actually was, everyone immediately voted to ban the iQue. Anytime you brought up the iQue in the Skype group, the group told you it was banned. You literally brought up the iQue legality in the Skype group several times a week (at one point nearly every day). And regardless of what the community decided, you kept running on the iQue. You were completely unwilling to compromise.

I had seen the community’s arguments on why to ban the iQue, and was leaning towards banning myself, but did not want to truly pick a side until I heard both sides of the argument. I went to you on Skype, and suggested we both, together, try to build a case for legalizing the iQue. Nobody in the community even knew I was doing so. I did it to try to include you back into the community, and to prevent bad blood between us. You basically told me to shove off, and then told your stream (and probably Twitter) that I was the ringleader in banning the iQue, and the community was just doing what I said. You flamed me, shamed me, threw me under the bus so hard. I was willing to compromise and help you try to build a case for the iQue. You weren’t, and just shoved me away, throwing me under the bus in response.

After you realized that the community was never going to accept the iQue, you left the Skype group, and cut off most communication with anyone in the community. You said in your stream (and I think on Twitter as well?) you believed that if you got enough World Records on the iQue, the community would be forced to accept the iQue. I have no idea how that logic works, but that is what you said several times. You said other similar things to this that I can’t remember, all along the same lines. Basically, you decided that if the community wasn’t going to accept the iQue, you were going to force the community to accept the iQue. You decided you were right, and that the community wasn’t willing to compromise to your decision.

While running the iQue, you flamed the entire rest of the community for not accepting the iQue. Our reasoning didn’t make sense, our decision didn’t make sense, and… basically, we were idiots for wanting to ban the iQue. You went to the point of saying you did soo much for the community, and this was our way of repaying you. And if there was any one person you would isolate and target, it was always me. I was apparently the leader of the community, and I apparently decided to ban the iQue.

You even went to the point of saying that you and I were in a power struggle for control over the community. There was no power struggle. There was no “leader” of the community. There was just a community, and you were isolating yourself from it. No matter how much we tried to mend that split, you would split it even more. No matter how much I would personally try to go to you and try to find a way to fix it, you would target me even more, flame me, shame me, etc. Some people in the community got tired of the drama and quit. I followed soon after, when the flaming and shaming became so great I couldn’t handle it anymore.

In summary, you wanted the iQue legal. The rest of the community voted unanimously to ban the iQue. You flamed and shamed the community repeatedly for not doing what you wanted. Anytime I came to you to try to help, whether by trying to find arguments for legalizing the iQue, or just to be supportive, you turned it all around on me and targeted me as the leader of the community and the one calling all the shots. You split yourself from the community, not the other way around. The drama you caused made several people, me included, quit running the game. I was willing to compromise, and tried several times. You were completely unwilling to compromise, and in doing so, made several people quit.

3. Creating the new leaderboards. When I made the suggestion to make a new leaderboards, people were in favour of it. I got Shadow, you, and me to be the ones who were the “leaders” in the making of the leaderboards, one because we were the “active” runners at the time, and two to hopefully mend the cracks that have been made over the last two years. At first, things were going well. Any disagreements we had, we would discuss it, and come to a consensus, or leave the decision until later in the creation process (maybe a different decision we make changes how we see this decision). Everything was going perfectly fine at the start.

We had agreed that we should have the boards start off as NA only (it wouldn’t take much to change it later in the building process). However, to test to see how a different version would look like if it were included, we put the Japanese version in, just to test. It was only meant to be a test. Suddenly, you shoved all your Japanese runs on the leaderboards, and did runs on the Japanese categories you did not have yet, just to completely fill the leaderboards. Suddenly everyone is putting their runs on the leaderboards. The leaderboards were still under construction, yet you saw the Japanese version, wanted it legal, so you shoved all your runs on there. Not only did you go completely against what we agreed on, but you halted the entire leaderboard creation. We would have to record every single run that was submitted in a separate place, and then delete every single run, just to do some of the changes that were still being suggested. There was nothing else Shadow and I could do, we were stuck with what we had.

The discussion of which versions we included on the leaderboards is something we could have very easily done at the end of the building project. Once everything is all set up how we like it, it’s a 2 day discussion, and then the versions we want can be on the leaderboards. You made the decision yourself, at the cost of halting the entire leaderboard building process.

Since everyone had submitted their runs, we were stuck with a work-in-progress leaderboards. Yet you left the construction, leaving just Shadow and I. There was nothing we could do, so we didn’t do anything. The incomplete leaderboards was what we were stuck with.

And then comes the old leaderboards. Knowing we still had work to do on the new leaderboards, I wanted to keep the old leaderboards so that when we eventually got back to finishing the new leaderboards, we had the old one we could temporarily put the runs in. It was a safe place to save every run. However, you left the leaderboard creation, Shadow lost motivation, I lost motivation, so the new leaderboards did not get finished. I kept the old leaderboards assuming we would eventually finish the leaderboards.

You eventually come back, and tell me to delete the old leaderboards. You harass me for months telling me I need to delete it, making several random reasons why. You got others to come and attack me to delete the leaderboards as well. I had reasons to keep the old leaderboards, but you were so obsessed about getting them deleted that you literally turned everyone against me. I had enough, I saw the leaderboards going nowhere, I didn’t want anything to do with it anymore, I was tired of getting attacked by everyone, so I gave supermod powers to you and removed myself. You got to be supermod of the leaderboards by bullying me off of it. As I give you supermod, I give you a massive long list of reasons as to why I did not delete the leaderboards. It took you over a month to finally delete the old leaderboards that you harassed me for, and turned everyone against me for. Even during that month, you came to me time and time again asking for help on the leaderboards. After I gave the supermod powers to you, and tried to rid myself of anything related to the leaderboards, and told you what needed to be done before the leaderboards were deleted, you came back to me and essentially got me to tell you what to do, and you took all the credit for it, giving me none (I think you threw me under the bus after that as well).

In Summary: You wanted change in the leaderboards, but wanted to put no effort into making the change, and basically tried to get me to make the change by myself. You even got everyone to come after me when I wasn’t doing anything to change the leaderboards, even though I wasn’t able to do anything because you ruined it. You ruined the leaderboard creation, and then blamed me for not continuing creating the leaderboards. When I gave the responsibility to you, you didn’t know what to do at all, and came back to me for help.

So as far as compromising goes, you were unwilling to compromise. You wanted Japanese on the leaderboards, so you made Japanese be on the leaderboards. You wanted the old leaderboards deleted, so you harassed me to delete the old leaderboards. The only time you were willing to compromise was when you were given supermod and had to do everything yourself, and instead came to me to tell you what to do.

Me, on the other hand, I tried to make a group effort into making the leaderboards. I was trying to make it so that Shadow, you, and me, all worked together on the leaderboards, and made them exactly how we wanted them to be made. I made sure to get both of your guys’s opinions before anything was done, and if a disagreement happened, I waited until we were all in agreement before I made any changes. If you didn’t agree, the change wasn’t made. So as far as compromising goes, I don’t think you can be more compromising than that.

4. Removing Japanese (this whole thread, or at least what it’s supposed to be about).

For the last year, nobody has shown any interest in running any other version aside from NA N64 from what I have seen. The only other “version” I have seen ran in the last year is emulator, which is already accepted on the leaderboard. Having a leaderboard for nobody does not make sense. So, I suggested removing the Japanese version. If we get enough interest in the category again, then we can add it back in again. However, nobody runs the category, nobody showed any interest in running the category (at the time of me making the initial post of this thread), so having it on the leaderboards made no sense at all.

As far as my “willingness to compromise” goes for this discussion, I said, very clearly, that if nobody is running on that version, then it makes no sense to have that version on the leaderboards. However, if people start actively doing runs, then we can add it back. I am willing to compromise if reasons to keep another version come up, and people actually actively run the game. That said, up until my last post, nobody ever showed any interest, so I said we should remove it. You kept saying you talked to people who wanted to run on all these different versions. It’s been a year, nobody ever did. So for you to continue to use that as an argument, to me, is no longer valid. It’s been a year, and nobody did any runs. If we had an active group of people doing runs on Japanese, that’s a different story. But nobody is doing runs on these versions. It’s had its chance, and nothing happened. If people do start doing runs, then we should look into this again and consider re-adding it. That was my compromise, and to me, it seems fair.

You, on the other hand, wanted Japanese (or bucket) on the leaderboards. You made a completely biased poll on Twitter, adding the link to my reasoning in a comment that most people wouldn’t even see, and probably wouldn’t even read, and let anyone who has no idea what the discussion is about vote on the poll. Your biased poll resulted in a 16-2 vote in favour of you, which is completely not surprising, given how you made the poll.

As far as discussions here go, you’ve been nearly entirely in favour of having another version (whatever it happens to be), and have made it clear time and time again that you will not remove Japanese. No matter what gets said, no matter what people say, you are unwilling to change your opinion, and because you are the “supermod”, you decided that whatever you want is what goes. You have been unwilling to compromise at all, and anytime I say anything against what you want, you turn it against me. Almost every single one of your posts look like attempts to make you look good, whether or not they are even related to the topic of the discussion (version inclusion), as well as some combination of making me look like a villain, flaming/shaming me, or just complete ignorance of anything I say that supports the removal of the other versions. I have made several very valid arguments for removing Japanese, and you completely ignore them, and instead find a way to make my opinion invalid.

As far as your “willingness to compromise” goes for this discussion, you have shown little to no willingness at all. Anything I say against your side is turned against me. Attempting to discuss this is next to impossible, since anything I say, you’ll turn it into your favour and make fun of me along the way.

Going back to the original message you made:

“I have shown a willingness to compromise from my positions again and again throughout the 3 years of version inclusion discussion and the evidence is in these forums, don't take it from me look it up. I changed my position repeatedly and you haven't made a single compromise.”

I think I have shown in this whole post that everything in that quote is a complete lie. You have been unwilling to compromise at all in the last 3 years, and if anything, get your way by bullying away people who think otherwise, or scaring them from even saying something against you. I, on the other hand, have been fully willing to compromise, even trying to compromise with you after everything you’ve been doing to me. I go out of my way to try to mend the crack that you made between us. And every time I do so, I get treated worse and worse every time.

Trying to have a debate with you is next to impossible if you’ve already made your decision. You are unwilling to even consider the other side of the argument, and use biased information to support your side. Nearly every member in the history of the smash 64 speedrunning community gave up even attempting to argue with you, since it’s no use, even if the entire community agreed on a decision and you didn’t. It’s a waste of time, effort, and completely unnecessary stress. I am basically the only person who will even attempt to debate against you. Even then, I find it frustrating to the point where I basically give up. I didn’t plan on making another response in this thread anymore since it was no use, but saw that quote you said, and decided to respond to it (because, as I have clearly shown in this post, it is a complete lie). The reason why it always looks like I’m the only person even trying to argue against you is because, quite frankly, nobody else wants to because it’s not worth it, and I’m reaching the point where I don’t even want to argue anymore either. I’ve put probably close to 10 hours making responses here, taking a lot of time and effort that I honestly can’t afford (I have a test tomorrow that I need to study for, and I am typing this all out). Yet every time I make a post, you just turn it into nothing, making it a complete waste of my time and effort.

No matter how hard anyone tries to debate the other side for anything, you will always go with what you want anyways. You did it with absolutely everything. You did it for In-Game Time vs Real Time for a month, you did it for iQue for… probably over a year, and you did it with the leaderboard creation. You’ve already shown you’re going to do it for Version Inclusion, so I don’t know why I’m wasting my time even attempting to argue against you. It doesn’t matter who’s right, who’s wrong, or what the discussion is even about, you do what you want, and the community can follow or get flamed. Some community members left for legitimate reasons, like family, but I’m sure some left because they had enough. I left twice before because of this, and honestly, every time I come back, I come back to this. It’s just not worth it.

Edit: Everything I wrote above was written when RubberDuckyAssassin’s post was the last one made. Before posting, I refreshed, and noticed two posts came afterwards. I would like to make a comment on the last two posts made, by InprisonedShadow, and by GhillieGuide.

Ghillie, your comment to Shadow’s post literally reflects everything I just said in this post. Shadow has made it clear, in his first posts in this thread, that he is undecided on what the correct course of action is. His first one showed support for both sides, and concerns/problems for both sides. His second post showed mostly concerns and problems on your side, yet stated he is still undecided. However, you saw that his post was not in support of your side, so you made a comment that completely threw Shadow under the bus.

You basically said in your comment that Shadow and I are trying to remove Japanese, against the wish of “several” people who complain that other versions don’t exist on the leaderboard. You literally just said Shadow and I are trying to make a decision that is against the community’s best interest. All because he made a few points that were against what you are supporting. He has never said which side he is in support of, nor has he ever done anything wrong to you. Yet you just threw him under the bus, all because he said something that did not immediately support your side.

You wonder why I am the only person who is ever even trying to argue against you in any discussion that happens. Your last comment sums up the entire reason by itself. Shadow says one or two things you don’t like, and you immediately throw him under the bus. Any attempt to argue with you, by anyone, is just met by disrespect, flaming, and shaming, as well as a complete waste of time. If this is how you are going to go about any discussion, then don’t expect anyone else to attempt to argue against you, because it’s not worth it what-so-ever. If you don’t get your way, you flame, shame, and throw those who didn’t support your side under the bus. Frankly, it’s not worth it, and frankly, I’ve had enough of it.

tl-dr:

Ghillie, you are the one who has never shown a willing to compromise, and I am the one who has tried to go out of my way to try to have a discussion with you. Yet every time I do so, you throw me under the bus. Anytime anyone says something that doesn’t support your side, you are disrespectful to them, you flame them, you shame them, you throw them under the bus. Your quote:

“I have shown a willingness to compromise from my positions again and again throughout the 3 years of version inclusion discussion and the evidence is in these forums, don't take it from me look it up. I changed my position repeatedly and you haven't made a single compromise.”

is a complete lie, and in this post, I have shown that not only is it a complete lie, but the roles are reversed. I am the one who is willing to compromise, and you are the one who refuses to do so.

If there was anything I did to you to be treated the way you've been treating me, please, let me know. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to know so that I don't do it in the future to others. But right now, I have no idea what I've done, and don't know if I even did anything wrong at all.

I responded to all three of those in my "wall of text". Your next post (#1 to 7) did not have anything to do with whether or not Japanese/bucket/other should be on the leaderboards. What you are basically saying is my entire wall of text doesn't matter.

Honestly, if that is how you are going to go about this, there is no reason for me to even attempt to argue my point. I spent 3 and a half hours making that post (with a short break in the middle). If all that time is for nothing, there's no reason for me to waste time making a post like that. I feel like anything I say, if it's not what you want to hear, you will just brush it into nothing, and publicly flame me and turn me into a villain. You've been treating me like this for 3 years, bullying me, flaming me, painting me as the villain, and if that's how you're going to continue, there's no reason for me to bother attempting to argue against you.

I honestly have no idea what I have done to you to deserve to be treated the way I've been treated for the last 3 years. I have been as respectful and supportive as I could be no matter how you’ve treated me, helping you whenever you ask for help, etc. In response, you've treated me so poorly you caused me to quit speedrunning twice. The flaming, shaming, villainizing, and bullying you've done to me, often because of the "WR" runs I've been getting, is the main reason I removed my runs from the leaderboards in the hopes that it would stop. Also, often when you do something wrong, you turn it around on me and blame me. You've been disrespectful to me this whole time, and I have no idea why.

Now I come here and make a suggestion to make the leaderboards look cleaner, and you do it again. You make a completely biased poll on Twitter, as well as flame and shame me publicly. All of this is done within 24 hours of me making a simple suggestion. It never ends, and I'm tired of it.

You said something to me 6 months ago that sums up how you've treated me for the last 3 years. It's something I've never forgotten, and probably will never forget for the rest of my life:

"For the record I don't just claim that you don't care about the community, I believe it. your actions are in direct conflict with the good of the community in my eyes."

I've been silent about the way you've been treating me this whole time, but honestly, after 3 years, I've had enough, so I'm making it public. If you want to continue bullying me, now the community knows about it.

As far as the leaderboards go, do what you want. That’s what you’ve been doing anyways whether people agree with you or not. I’m wasting my time even trying to make a suggestion, and anything I do, you turn it against me. I’m done.

I meant the topic is about Japanese on the leaderboards (and bucket as well I guess). Nothing you said is related to that discussion from what I can find.

edit: i.e. you gave no reasons as to why Japanese (or bucket/other) should remain on the leaderboards.

I'll be honest, I am completely confused by that response. Half of that response is contradictory to what you've said previously, as if you're trying to "remove" bad things you've said (e.g. baiting me into Japanese, flaming me on Twitter), and replace them with good things instead to make you look good. The other half is basically entirely filler and not related to anything at all. The only point that is somewhat relevant to the discussion is one or two sentences in your #7. Even then, it's not really relevant (just talking about past intentions).

Is there anything I am missing? Or do you not have an actual response to my post?

I am trying to make a response without being disrespectful, but I can’t. You’ve literally given arguments and reasons that I cannot respond to without bringing in something that you have done. I’m going to try to make this as respectful as I can, but there may be places where it may seem disrespectful. If so, I’m sorry, but I literally have no other way I can respond properly.

If I recall correctly from being able to edit the leaderboards, you are able to select which versions are allowed. It’s literally a check box you click. You can literally unselect every version except for NA N64. Every run does not end up being deleted. I may be wrong about this, but if not, the whole “deleting and resubmitting” is not an issue.

If runs do have to be deleted and resubmitted, then you’re just proving my point a year ago that the leaderboards were never finished properly. During the making of the leaderboard, we agreed to have it NA N64 only. Midway through the building of the leaderboards, we added in Japanese as a test to see what it looked like. You shoved in all your Japanese runs to make it impossible to remove without a massive backlash, and even did Japanese runs for every other category just so that every Japanese category had a run. Japanese was never supposed to be added to the leaderboards in the first place. You just shoved your runs in so that you got your way and there was nothing we could do about it without causing massive drama. Not only that, many changes were impossible because they may force us to delete every single run that was submitted to the leaderboards (including all the Japanese runs you shoved in). So if you’re going to complain about us having to delete and re-submit every single run on the leaderboards, or have to make modifications to the specifics of the leaderboards, that is all on you for ruining the building of the leaderboards back when we were doing it initially. A few weeks later, I asked Shadow when the three of us agreed that Japanese should be on the leaderboards. He was just as confused as I was.

As far as the Japanese runs go, only around 6 runs are actual decent attempts. The ones I remember off the top of my head are Shadow’s Link runs for each difficulty, his Fox Very Easy run, and your DK Very Hard run. I may be missing some, but none of the other runs are optimized in any way possible. Shadow himself said he doesn’t care as much about his Japanese runs. Aside from DK Very Hard (and maybe one or two more that I am forgetting), most of your Japanese runs are bad (on purpose). They are much slower than the NA run, even though Japanese is the faster console. Even comparing only your runs, all but 2 runs you’ve submitted to both are faster on the NA version. If the leaderboards are going to be filled with purposefully bad runs, that is not a leaderboards.

And before you flame me for calling your runs bad, you said yourself on your stream while doing the runs that your runs were being made bad on purpose. You said, on stream, you were purposefully doing bad runs to try to bait me into doing Japanese runs for free World Records. I mentioned this to Shadow months later, and he said you said the same thing to him to try to get him into doing Japanese runs. You were basically trying to bait us into doing runs so that Japanese would be immediately a legitimate version to run (I don’t get that logic at all).

Otherwise, nobody runs Japanese at the moment. Nobody has ran Japanese seriously, and nobody has shown any interest in running Japanese at all. The last run was submitted 2 months ago by one person in 7 categories (who has also submitted runs on NA). The last runs submitted before that were 9 months ago. Looking at the 36 character category on Japanese, 6 categories do not even have a run submitted, and over half of the categories have at most one run submitted. Nobody cares about Japanese runs at the moment, and until people actually start showing interest again, there is no reason at all for a separate section for Japanese.

We’ve had the Japanese category up for a year, and all of these people who wanted it up did nothing while it was up. So it’s had its chance.

As far as the “bucket” idea, after having thought about it, it won’t work properly at all. Having a separate section on the leaderboards just to dump a bunch of random runs in is not how a leaderboard should work. Those runners who have done runs on other versions have often only done one (or very few) categories. That does not add up to enough for a leaderboard at all imo. Not to mention you’re going to have a mess of versions being “compared” to each other, and the better run is not necessarily higher on the leaderboard. So as far as the “bucket” idea goes, we don’t have nearly enough runs for it to work, nor do I think it would be a good idea either way.

Another thing I should mention: These leaderboards should be a decision made by ¤¤¤¤¤THE SMASH 64 SPEEDRUNNING COMMUNITY¤¤¤¤¤. In other words, the community of players that run smash 64 should be the ones involved in this decision. Also, no one person should be making the decision for the community. Not you, and not me. I have my opinion on what should happen. You have your opinion on what should happen. However, it is the community as a whole that should decide what ultimately happens. That said, those involved in the decision should be aware of the reasons for all sides of the decision. If you tell people your side, and completely bypass my side, of course everybody is going to side with you. But if they see my arguments, then maybe some will agree with my opinions. So although you say you “won’t agree to a NA N64 Version only leaderboard”, if the smash 64 speedrunning community believes it is the better option, then that is what should be done, whether you agree to it or not.

Also, I emphasized that it should be smash 64 runners making the decision. If someone from another game has an opinion on what should happen in this game, but has never ran the game, and has no intention on ever running the game, then their opinion should not have any weight on the decision. They are fully able to give their opinion on the matter, and support a side, and try to get one side to gain more support. However, when the final decision comes down, they should not have a say in what happens.

Almost everyone in every other speedrunning community is unaware of the version differences in this game. For most games, the difference between Japanese and NA is minor text, or maybe a few slight differences (a star in or out of a box in Super Mario 64 for example). Really, there is no major difference. In this game, the games aren’t even comparable for speedrunning. The AI acts so differently, all moves have less hitstun/hitlag, and many characters have different properties altogether. So getting the opinion from someone who is completely unaware of the differences, then saying they think removing NA is stupid and isolationist, is literally getting someone who is completely unaware of the differences in the version to make a completely uninformed decision, fully biased in your favour. It’s not even their fault, they just have no idea of the differences that exist in this game, and aren’t told before asking for a decision.

I saw your poll on Twitter. That was the most biased thing you could have done. You made a public poll to anybody on a topic in which any other game’s speedrunners would immediately say “keep Japanese”. Not to mention, most of the people voting are following you, and will likely support your side because of that. You even vaguely posted the link to this thread, in which several people wouldn’t have even clicked before voting. You had to have known all of this while making the poll, that pleading to the uninformed person would result in a massive vote in favour of you. So the fact that the result came out to be 16-2 in favour of keeping Japanese is not surprising at all. In fact, I was surprised 2 people even voted to remove Japanese (I did not vote on that poll, so two other people chose that). That said, that poll does not represent at all the opinion of the smash 64 speedrunning community. And then you bash me and personally attack me several times in the comments of that tweet, making people reading think I have no idea what I am talking about (a few more votes for keeping Japanese). Seriously, there is nothing good I can say about that tweet. If this is where your “many voices” is coming from, then I think I answered my opinion on that right there. They probably don’t even run the game, have no intention on running, and have not even read anything I said in this thread.

No disrespect to anyone who voted, you did nothing wrong, just voted on a poll that was there. Nothing wrong with that at all.

In summary: Nobody runs Japanese. Nobody has submitted runs in a long time, nobody has shown any intention on submitting runs. The runs on the leaderboards are not optimal in any way, and almost every run submitted by you was made bad on purpose. There is no reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards at the moment. If people start running Japanese again, and it gains popularity, then it would maybe be a good time to add it in. But for now, nobody runs it, it doesn’t look like anybody will run it, and it was never supposed to be there in the first place. So in my opinion, it should be removed.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with that suggestion. On the bright side, everyone can submit runs on every version and it could work out fine. However, it's no longer a leaderboard. You're going to have J runs competing against VC runs competing against iQue runs competing against PAL runs etc.

And for the same reasons as I said in my first post, nobody actively runs on these other versions, and the few runs that exist on these versions to begin with isn't really enough to say that we should be doing that imo.

If we suddenly get 3-4 people who are running on Japanese, and we actually have a reason to have Japanese, then we should absolutely have the Japanese version on the leaderboards. If we have a PAL runner, a J runner, and maybe 2 VC runners, or something like that, then I'd say it makes sense to do your "bucket" idea, since individually no version has enough interest for its own section, but enough "not NA N64" runs are being ran such that putting them together could work (though we may want to re-look into this after we have it up for a bit to make sure it actually works out).

However, at the moment, we don't have any active runners for that. The runs that currently exist on Japanese, in my opinion, do not warrant it to stay on the leaderboards. There are also next to no runs of any other version at the moment. But as interest in these versions increases, it makes sense to either make a single version section, or the "bucket idea". But for now, I personally think it should be taken out.

Is there any reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards?

Nobody runs on the Japanese version. Aside from one runner who submitted runs 2 months ago, the last person to submit a run was 9 months ago. The people who said they would do runs only on the Japanese version did a few runs, then never came back to the game. Aside from Falcon Very Easy, almost every category has one or two runs submitted to them, and some categories are completely blank.

On top of that, aside from 5 or so categories, none of the times are optimized in any way. The Japanese version is considered faster than the NA version, yet almost every time on the Japanese version doesn’t even come close to the NA version time, even from the same runner. Almost every runner who has tried both versions does not like doing runs on Japanese, and much prefers doing runs on the NA version.

Nobody runs on Japanese, most of the times are not even close to being optimized, and most people don’t enjoy running on the Japanese version. Is there any reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards?

I realized I should probably split my post in two, so here's the second half:

There are a couple of questions I have on the rules that I think should be clarified in the rules section:

1. Should "customization" be allowed? This includes Subspace Emissary and everything smash Wii U.

2. Can someone play more than one game at once? We are already doing this with melee by default, but what I mean is, for example, play a stage of Subspace, then during the screen transitions, play a stage of Wii U classic, and alternate back and forth. Another alternative method is literally playing two games at once (e.g. playing through Subspace Emissary normally, while unlocking smash 64 with your feet).

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Personally, I think that customizations should be banned in all games (default characters only). Especially considering the fact that everyone is starting from a new save file, this means that everyone will get different customization items. That said, no customizations allowed has not always been the popular decision (I've seen customization allowed runs several times for smash 3ds and Wii U). So that may be something that should be discussed.

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I'm also on the fence about multiple games at once. One argument would be that this would be a massive disadvantage for people who use multiple games on the same console (e.g. Smash 64 on Virtual Console, or Melee on Wii, or Brawl on Wii U). However, in this run, melee runs throughout the whole time, and brawl on the Wii U means no gamecube controller, meaning brawl will be played on the Wii (unless a different control method is used, which would be a very small minority). So the only realistic instance of multiple games on the same console would be the Virtual Console version of smash 64. But at that point, you've got three versions on two consoles, so you can easily do two versions at once regardless. So imo, that argument isn't one that I find overly impactful.

What is causing me to be on the fence about this is that it would be very hard for some people to stream two games at once. First, most people only have one capture card. Second, some people's computers may not be able to handle streaming two "video" sources at once (whether it be from two capture cards, or one capture card and a webcam pointed to a tv screen). So my reasons for being on the fence is not really about "fairness" in the run, it's more on the ability for all runners to be able to even stream it properly. If it would be considered impossible for some runners to stream two games at once, then it should be banned.

Personally, I think it would be really funny seeing someone literally try to play two (or 3 Kappa ) games at once. I'd probably even try to do that myself if I were to run this and it were allowed (and I found a way to stream 2 games at once). If it is considered impossible, maybe it could be considered a separate category (or even considered a "meme" category).

When someone told me about this category, I suggested starting the run by starting the 5 hour long melee vs match (to unlock Mewtwo in melee), then do all the other games, then come back and finish melee at the end. Using this method, when you come back to melee, Mewtwo's requirements are met (unless you somehow manage to unlock everything in less than 5 hours).

The rules say nothing about having to unlock all the characters in the 3DS version of the game, so I assume you only have to unlock all characters in the console versions. If that's the case, then the Jigglypuff unlock requirement example in the rules and also listed above is not required, as it is a 3ds unlock requirement (Jigglypuff is unlocked from the start on the Wii U version).

For my recommended strats on unlocking all characters for each game:

Melee (part 1):

Start a 1 stock vs match, items off, with 4 different characters, on a safe stage with no hazards (e.g. Yoshi's Story). Make sure one of these characters is a character you want to use to unlock Mewtwo. Keep in mind that you will be using two characters to unlock characters in vs mode (Marth being the second), so save another character for that point as well. Once you start the match, move on to completing all the other games.

After that, the other 3 games can be done in any order. I listed them in the order they were released, but the order of completion really doesn't matter.

Smash 64:

I would recommend trying to unlock Ness first (Normal, 3 stock, no continue). That way, if you fail it (e.g. game overing), you can finish that run and unlock Falcon or Jigglypuff, and try again. I would also recommend doing the Break the Targets as you go in the 1p mode so you don't have to do it later for Luigi (unless you repeat a character, then only do it the first time). I'd save Luigi for last so that you do some of the BtT during the 1p mode (saves about 30 seconds overall, very rough estimate).

Brawl:

As far as routing goes, without versus matches, you would have to complete Subspace Emissary to unlock all characters, as "complete Subspace Emissary" is a requirement to unlock some characters. As you're going through Kirby's solo Subspace section, make sure you pick up Link and Zelda, as that unlocks Ganondorf. After completing Subspace, you'll be left with Jigglylpuff, Toon Link, and Wolf. You can either return to Subspace or do their alternate requirement method (I'm not sure how far into the stage they get unlock in Subspace, so I'm not sure which is fastest).

Smash Wii U:

I would recommend doing All-Star on Normal first (unlock Dark Pit), since every character you unlock adds another character to the all-star run. I would also recommend doing Crazy Orders last (unlock ROB), as you may earn Crazy Order tickets and gold along the way, giving you more attempts at meeting his requirements. Otherwise, the order in which you complete all the unlock requirements is more or less up to you. Again, like in Smash 64, when doing the Classic mode unlocks, I would recommend doing the higher level requirement first, as if you Game Over, it will still qualify for the lower requirements. Another thing to consider is that since Game Overing makes your difficulty go down by 0.5, if you are worried about game overing, you can do the 5 classic modes on difficulty 2.5, giving you a one Game Over buffer in case something goes wrong.

Melee (part 2), splitting up into paragraphs due to complexity:

When you come back to melee, just sd on 3 characters, making the character you want to have face Mewtwo win the game. Then just unlock Mewtwo. While still in versus mode, you can unlock Marth by playing a vs mode with each of the original 14 characters, so just play 2 more 4 person vs mode matches, and a final 2 person match to get all 14, making the winner of the last one the one you use to face Marth.

I would recommend saving the event match requirements for "last" (Ganondorf and Pichu), as Pichu's event requires several characters to be unlocked. I would also recommend completing any Break the Targets you end up doing in classic modes along the way, as all Break the Targets will be the fastest method for Game & Watch.

Aside from that, again, the order you complete the other modes is entirely up to you. I would recommend that any "Adventure or Classic" mode requirements be done in Classic, as Classic is much faster than Adventure, and you need to complete 10 Classic runs to unlock Young Link anyways. Aside from that, whether you start with Classic (Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Roy), Adventure (Luigi), or 100 man melee (Falco), is entirely up to you (if a character in one mode is a character you'd prefer to use in another, e.g. Jigglypuff in Adventure, then you can do Classic before Adventure).

Once every character aside from Mr. Game & Watch is unlocked, complete the Break the Targets with all remaining characters (i.e. characters you didn't complete classic mode with). Then you unlock Mr. Game & Watch, and finish the run.

Hopefully these strats help for anyone trying to route out this category. It looks like a fun category :p

Hello,

First off, full disclaimer, I don't run this game, and do not know of the specifics of the smash 3ds community. That said, I do actively run the other smash games (most notably smash 64), and I've dealt with the IGT vs RT debate as well as the version differences debate sooo many times before, so I thought I'd leave my opinion. Maybe it will help?

I'm not going to go into details of the pros and cons of each, so here's a summary from my experience, and from what I've read above (note these are for Classic and All-Star):

Real Time: Pros; Easy timing method (start splits, end splits, there's your time). Cons: Version/console/handheld difference (some calling it pay to win)

IGT: Pros: All versions equal, accurate to the hundredth (time is counted in hundredths) Cons: Final time requires math (probably confusing for some, and some may not even want to calculate their IGT).

(I know there are more reasons than this, but these are the two main problems brought up in the posts above)

Basically, from my understanding of the above, and from past experience with this problem, the big question is whether to use a timing method that makes submitting runs very user friendly (Real Time), or a timing method that makes all versions equal and comparable (In-Game Time). In my opinion, both sides have completely valid arguments supporting their method and arguing against the other. However, this makes deciding on which method even harder. Any decision like this should be a community decision, agreed upon by everyone, or a clear majority (i.e. 75% or more). At the moment, the community seems split, which basically means either more discussion is needed, or an alternative solution should be used. Seeing as this is split right down the middle, and neither side seems willing to budge at all, how about this TEMPORARY solution:

Use both timing methods (i.e. have both a Real Time and an IGT for every run)

This way, you can see the pros and cons of both on the leaderboard itself. For now, if someone doesn't want to add up their IGT, then a mod could do it for them (looking quickly through all the categories, it looks like submissions are not very common, so it's not like you have to do it for 100 runs a week or something). Then, in a month or two, come back to this question. Look at the times put up. If it looks like the version difference is having a major impact and needs to be dealt with, go back to IGT. If the version difference is not as big a deal, stick to Real Time.

Regardless of what the decision is, whether it's done now, or months from now, it should be a COMMUNITY decision. The smash 3ds community should as a whole come to a consensus, or significant majority. A 50/50 split is not enough to make a good decision. If a decision cannot be made at the current time with the current data and information available, then I'd recommend you guys use both for now, and decide later when more info on the differences comes into play.

Again, I do not run this game, but from past experience on this topic in other smash games, I just wanted to maybe give a suggestion that might help. Regardless of the decision and result, I hope the decision you guys make is the best for the community.

pikashy

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