IMPORTANT WALL OF TEXT @Doodletones !

First of all, I'd like for us to iron out a clear definition of what is out of bounds in this game.

In order to maybe open a few talking points I'm posting a video below that showcases some examples of jumping over obstacles.

So let's think about it for a bit and play devil's advocate

1. Only the ocean is OOB: Since the playable area is an island, we could consider that everything out of the boundaries of the island, i.e the ocean, to be out of bounds. This rules most of the current Any% route. However, this doesn't rule out the Fence skip where you land on the side of the moutain. Like here (timestamped)

2. You are only considered OOB if you land and touch the out of bounds ground. This excludes the old Fence skip mentionned above. This means flying above out of bounds areas is considered inbounds since you shoot up and land from and to inbounds areas. Like here (timestamped)

3. Ban the collision jump glitch (CJG) altogether In that particular case, this doesn't prevent you at all from going out of bounds during the prologue by squeezing yourself inbetween the stone fence and the wooden shack. You'd have to find ways to get back on the map without CJG somewhere else than Brennan's Folly beach because you'd be locked behind the fence.

3.5) Ban both CJG AND walking on out of bounds areas This should cover every single trick found in the game. This would basically be just puzzle solving, which doesn't require skill or anything. This would basically defeat the purpose of speedrunning this category, because it would be like trying to make the speedrun slower by any means necessary; which in my opinion is contrary to what speedrunning stands for.

Any of these options would lead to renaming the category accordingly and stating what is or isn't allowed in the rules.

I can't think of any more possibilities to raise at the moment but allow me give my personnal opinion about this matter. I'm currently all for the 2nd option because it's the one that makes the more sense considering how MM works as a speedgame.

However, defining what areas are out of bounds might be tricky sometimes. So I re-recorded the tricks I showcased in the first video of this very post, except I intentionnally messed them up (because it can very easily happen in runs depending on the amount of air you get). You can easily compare with my very first video. n°1 AND n°2

In both videos, I purposefully land on "out of bounds" areas before quickly going back inbounds. What do you think of these instances ? Are they bannable ? Do you think you should just clear every jump without landing at all on out of bounds surfaces ?

Also, to me, the pipe we walk on at the wooden bridge section is technically out of bounds :O you don't really walk on it, you walk on invisible geometry and getting back inbounds is wonky as hell. So, depending on how we decide what is allowed and what isn't, you might have to clear the entire gap and land back inbounds instead of using the pipe to cross the water below.

One last thing, here is a small clip I found on Fisherman's Beach for inbounds and 100%. This one is straightforward and uncontrovertial :)

I figured this conversation would eventually spark up, and to be honest, it is a smidgen arbitrary at the end of the day what I was deciding was okay, but generally, since MM has you on a single track course I was keeping that in mind with what I decide to be okay or not, which is why something like Bridge skip would be okay, because while one could argue it to be OOB since you're not supposed to be there, it's still on the basic path that the game requires you to follow along to in a casual playthrough.

However, something like a really high up O'Sullivan Skip to get past the second fence and go straight to Brennan's Folly would not be okay because it completely cuts through the basic path the game has laid out for you, this was what I keep in mind, with that said, both of your questions regarding the cutscene skips and the skip after that would be okay since, again, they follow that basic laid out map.

I... hope that makes sense. I can try to better clarify if I need to.

Okay so, let me get this straight !

Do not EXCESSIVELY walk on out of bounds areas: use out of bounds to simply get around some obstacles (gates and such). No major skips: follow the intended path laid out by the developpers without skipping over big chunks of the game.

I don't know, I'm thinking about it and it is indeed a bit subjective. While I understand that an O'Sullivan's skip that goes straight over the fence on the left, skipping a big chunk of the game, might deviate a bit much from the intended path; one of the very first gates you have to open via a puzzle should fall in the same category (since you skip some back and forth and puzzle solving). The only difference here between the two is the amount of actual content skipped, and THIS is what's subjective. This is what's problematic.

I think it'll be fine as long as not many people run this game. However, this category WILL be questionned if or when more people come in, because it's inconsistent in the way it's defined.

I just realized I thought you meant Fischerman's Beach skip when you meant O'Sullivan's Beach skip. The second gate there goes straight out of bounds so it's irrelevant in inbounds.

So I have a problem, you skip O'Sullivan's Beach in Inbounds which represents quite a big chunk of the game in terms of puzzle solving. So if a way was found to skip Fischerman's Beach entirely like for example by getting enough air at the Prologue Bridge jump, would it be okay ? You still follow the intended path laid out by the devs. I know that you need 4 pieces of stone to continue later on, but let's talk in hypotheticals

We (I) need consistency in the decision-making because arbitrary choices make for a poor speedgame :)

Either anything skippable along the intended path is okay, or none of it is okay. But it CAN'T be whatever you feel like skipping. It has to be consistent.

So in that case there are only two choices possible: Inbounds is:

• no Collision Jump Glitch (CJG) allowed, no out of bounds of any kind. This is basically 100% in terms of puzzle solving (including O'Sullivan's Beach). You just don't have to collect stuff.

• CJG allowed but landing in out of bounds areas is forbidden: this creates a big difference from regular Any%. that removes the possibility of LANDING ON the pipe in the prologue to skip the lowering of the wooden bridge; BUT you can still skip it if you get enough air to LAND BACK INBOUNDS. in this scenario anything goes (you can skip whatever amount of content YOU CAN/MANAGE BE ABLE TO skip), so that means that if you're skilled enough, if you practice enough and if you're lucky enough you can get ahead of the other runners. This is a way better option than just walking-sim your way to the end without any tricks at all.

I'll repeat it once again: we can't allow or forbid tricks arbitrarily. Unless you have an other option to submit, I think we'll have to choose between the two above. Just to note, while I don't like the first option, it does at least make sense to me. I, of course, would go for the second option.

I understand how you came to create the Inbounds category, and you might've - like you said - not thoroughly thought this through in the moment, which is perfectly understandable. That's why I'm opening this discussion, so we can come to a conclusion and really start running this thing. Because right now it's a bit of a mess.

Also, please understand I'm not trying to be a dick or to be a thorn in your side. I'm just simply trying to make the runs legit so that when people come in they don't think MM is a joke of a speedgame.

EDIT. you know what ? I'm going to record a run with these parametres in mind, and post it here, then we can discuss it. It'll help talk about certain particular cases, because I realize how confusing it is to discuss such matters on a written forum board

Here is the video: That was one of my first tries after having done some theory crafting and practice. I still fuck up some of the small cutscene skips (the small 18 seconds cutscene intros to a new location) but that should give you an idea of what I had in mind.

Watch it and tell me if you think this is good, or timestamp moments you'd like to talk about. :)