As the new blue cat glitch has shown it is possible to break some of the World Records way easily than before, I would fine interesting to separate runs using glitches from runs that don't use it. Most of the games here in Speedrun.com have separate categories to dissociate glitch and glitchless runs, and until now I found out the idea pretty useless as breaking-game glitches weren't discovered yet. Now I found this more than useful as it devaluates all the efforts done since speedrunning has started on this game.

PS : Just to clarify things : some people could say I'm complaining because my World 3 speedrun was beaten by Ectoplasm, absolutely not.

Personnally I'm not a huge fan of game-breaking glitches, even if it can still be interesting to see what's the lowest time is possible if the time saved is worth it.

Now the question is :

Do you guys think it is a good idea to separate runs with glitches from those who don't ? And if yes, Is there any way to do so ?

Thanks for reading, have a nice day

The issue with a blanket ban on all glitches is that runs that have them, like 1-4 and 2-1, would still be in competition with the blue glitch. And that's assuming we can come to a decision on what counts as a glitch (one of the main reasons I personally dislike glitchless and NMG categories). I think a better idea would be to isolate just the blue glitch as a separate category and not have a true glitchless one.

The other problem is that this is a small speed game with a lot of ILs. Making a separate category would mean creating 266 more leaderboards that will mostly go unused, especially with the hardware dependency.

Third, the glitch does not save time in all levels. Separating the leaderboards would force anyone who only wants the fastest strats, like me, to have to look at two boards instead of one.

The idea I've considered is adding the blue glitch as a filter. That way runs with and without it can exist on the same leaderboard for easy comparison and better organization, but can also be separated with a toggle for those that want it.

Yeah I thought about the fact it would make lots of unused categories. If it separates runs using the blue glitch from runs who don't, it seems fine to me. So in that way, there will be 2 leaderboards with and without it ( if I understood correctly). Then if you can, try to do so.

As you said it seems there are glitches in 1-4 and 2-1, but as of now I don't exactly see where these are. And I personally think glitches could be used in runs ( like 5-7 clipping glitch) as long as it is not something that completely breaks the game. However I find it pretty unfair as we didn't figure out yet how to do it consistently.

Thinking about it more and more I think I figured out something that could work :

As you said if we make another categorie, it could be useless as most of the ILs don't save time using the glitch.

But I just thought that all ILs in perfectionnist mode don't have runs.

And thereotically that would mean it's not that much of a deal if we add another category for blue glitch runs.

The problem with filters is that all runs are in the same leaderboards despite not using the same routes, and for those who don't want to use the bug, it seems really unfair. But as you said, if there's a way to make 2 leaderboards instead of one through the toggle, then why not.

Adding the category wouldn't change a lot of things, except having a lot of unused leaderboards, like in perfectionnist ILs.

I think having a tag named «glitched» or something like that would be a good idea. There are too many ILLs for new ones, I think it would be messy. I agree with Saturne saying that a new category would be nice, because having categories restricted by hardware seems like a bad idea, but then we have to define what «glitched» means. So I think the easier solution is to just make a tag, at least while the game still doesn't have so many runners.

Also just a question: does anyone have a link to a guide/video for this new glitch tech? I would like to try it out 😇

As Zachery said I think we can only separates runs using the blue cat glitch, as for now there is only this glitch that completely breaks all the efforts done

I'm not really sure what you mean by tag, but the issue will stay the same if all the runs have the same leaderboard in common.

For the glitch, Zach and I made videos about how to reproduce the glitch :

Here's Zachery's video :

Here's mine

Tags are what are used for filtering. If you select "Filters" on a board, you'll have a number of options to toggle such as platform performed on, emulator usage, and obsoletion. The idea is to add a tag for the blue glitch for filtering. We'd likely use the same options as emulator: Hidden, Shown, Exclusive.

The problem will stay the same, as all runs stay on the same leaderboard because filters can be changed only by the user himself. The thing is in all case you consider all the runs, using or not the glitch, equally.

It's like if perfectionnist and normal speedrun runs were on the same leaderboard : you simply cannot compare the records as the rules completely change from a run to another.

I think that when you said "266" more leaderboards you meant add new categories on all the existing game modes ( or at least speedrun and story). The best option according to me in simply to add the category "Speedrun : Blue Glitch" or something like that

For some ILs, the perfectionnist game mode is simply impossible ( like 5-3 where the spike jump after the 2 lava lakes is mandatory to get to the finish) and it'll take way more time to finish the game in story mode, as dialogues and actions are also slowed down.

Indeed, all leaderboards won't have the best time for all ILs, but you can still try to do the best times as possible on every levels using the glitch, even if it's not better than regular speedrun mode runs.

By doing so :

• you cleary define what the category means, and add a new rule in the other ones saying the blue glitch is forbidden.

• All runs are cleary separated, and each category has 1 common rule instead of many ( I mean by that all runs aren't mixed up with those using the glitch and those who don't)

• It could create even more challenge to master that glitch, and even try to understand the current glitches we don't fully comprehend yet ( like 5-7 clip ).

That's my thought on it, and I'll be glad to hear what's the matter with adding that category, kindly of course.

the split could be named as "NMG" (no major glitches) & "Glitched"

I think there is a lot of sense in Saturnes argument, because lots of other games on this website split glitchless/glitched. But I think if you add a new category it should be «glitchless» vs «glitched» because there is more than one game breaking glitches than just the blue glitch (example clip glitch) and many of these are bound to hardware. Also if a new game breaking glitch is found it can be filtered into «glitched».

On the other hand I still think for the time being its not very suitable to make a whole new category since anyone speedrunning seriously would try implement the blue glitch where possible anyway, so competition between glitched vs glitchless for certain ILs won't really be a thing. I guess there is the point that this might make some ILs inaccessible for speedrunners who use different hardware. For example, I'm assuming 8-4 is probably pretty unreasonable for mobile players who cannot recreate the clip glitch easily.

However in my opinion, given how there is not much competition yet, I think it would be better to wait until there is more demand for optimisation/more people running the game. Plus the loud majority of people running the game seriously do so on mobile anyway, where the blue glitch is performable. I guess you could say that results in some bias for PC versions for the clip glitch, but this has only one or two good known uses and the ILs it concerns are hardly touched for now.

So TLDR, I think wait until there is more competition before splitting categories.

One more problem with making a separate category is the novelty of the glitch. Because the glitch is so new, we don't fully understand how much time it saves — or loses — throughout the course of the game. Calling it game breaking enough to warrant its own category — on the level of sm64 star door skips, wrong warps, or even intended mechanics that cut out large chunks of a game — seems both premature and an exaggeration of its potential as we currently understand it. (It also doesn't change the objective in any way, so that argument would'nt work). We also know fairly conclusively it's slower in many levels, and this is a game with a prominent focus on IL records.

More personally, I don't like the idea of having to jump between categories when trying to submit my own speedruns, since I'll always want to do so on the faster category whenever I can.

Even by speedrunning seriously the game, it is clear the runs don't play with the same rules.

I'm personnally not a big fan of that glitch, as said before I think it devaluates all the efforts.

I've watched previous Zach's videos abour all the glitches he found out throughout the years, and one of them was on World 7 where you can make disseapear rooms and drastically reduces the final time ( He reached a time around 1 minute compared to 3 on normal runs). In the description he mentionned this will obviously not count as a actual run, seeing the massive time saving that glitch does. So shouldn't we be considering not allowing the blue glitch for the same reason ?

Of course it would still be interesting to see the lowest times reached, but should we count them as real runs then ?

As Retro mentionned ( partially), this glitch does not work the same way from a device to another, creating even more unfairness among the players. And for those who wants to compete seriously but without any glitches, it may be unfair

@retro6892 I should point out that there are hardware differences between mobile devices, but is it confirmed this glitch doesn't work on PC?

The glitch might be new but we already see what it can do. The rules are simply no longer the same while using the glitch

Yeah, that's why it's unfair for PCs players. It seems you need to hold the slide and pause button at the same time, and afaik it doesn't seem doable on PC

The reason I disallowed the World 7 glitch was because all it does is break the results screen. Your best time recorded in the game's memory is still tracked properly, and anyone watching the run can see how much time each room took. It's more similar to glitches in Mario Kart 64 that show a time of 0 seconds on the initial results screen but never get saved to memory.

Regarding the PC discrepancy, we already have a filter for platforms that can separate them from mobile runs.

I don't have a immediate way of checking dev progress anymore nor do I know whether the dev aims to update the game further, but I know for sure in the past they were pretty keen on fixing bugs, and I feel like this blue glitch is no exception. But do let me know if the dev has stopped updating the game altogether. If this is the case then having the blue glitch runs at all becomes obsolete, as if it is patched out we are going to have runs which cannot be beaten/do not reflect the current state of the game. I'm not sure about mobile devices but restoring old versions is pretty unfeasable via steam, at least not without a lot of effort, and so the glitch would pretty much be lost if that's the case.

Also if this is the case, it provides more reason to segregate glitched and glitchless runs, as I feel most glitches will be patched (as long as the dev is still keen to update the game).

I agree with Saturnes point when saying it is nice to see how fast a game can be completed at all. But I feel like this is more of a task reserved for segmented runs/TASes, whereas speedrunning should not require using really convoluted game setups, hardware specifics, and older game versions, rather it should be simply based on the speedrun feature of the current version which is just in the game already.

So TDLR again: will this blue glitch get patched? If yes then we should segregate these runs or just not include them at all.

A pity, but maybe if some unofficial thing wants to be set up it would be nice to have an archive of how fast the game could theoretically be beaten historically.

I'm gonna ask on the official CAL discord if they ever heard about the bug and if they're gonna patch it or not.

What I'm wondering now is what do we do with the bug for now ?

As the rules completely change during the glitch , either we still use it in actual runs then we can create the new category ( despite having multiple leaderboards, )

• we allow it in normal runs but that means it could be patched later on, and then we'll have to clear all the obsolete runs

• We simply forbid it as it is game-breaking enough to change the rules of the main category

I will leave this up to you and Zachary with the mod powers and glitch experience to decide. But I think a good option for now is allow it in normal runs, no new category or tag, until there is more competition or it gets patched. If it gets patched we should make them obsolete. If there is more competition across different platforms we should make a new tag/category.

Just to note: playing on a specific version of a game is extremely common in speedrunning (The first example that comes to mind is Portal) Downloading an older version on mobile is easy, although you lose your save file in the process.

@Petit_Saturne: What are these "rules" that are being changed?