I will not be adding rules that restrict game play beyond categorical limitations.

General rules and explanations: No pre-set groups. Solo queing random dungeons is fine, but questing or using a friend to move you around on their mount is not.

No guilds. Guild bonuses and guilds being able to instantly mail items to the player are unfair and provide unfair bonuses.

Timing will start after clicking "Enter World" for the first time. You may create a character before the run to pre-load the environment, but all runs must be done from a fresh character.

The mailbox is only allowed in all Heirloom catagories, non heirloom 1-60, 70, 80, 85, 90, 100, and 110 runs, Double Agent, Loremaster, and Double Agent Loremaster catagories as of the 3rd of December, 2015.

Bug exploitation is legal, as long as it is in the game and not an outside influence.

All experience potions and bonuses will be legal, provided you mail them to your character after you have entered the world for the first time, or are retrieving them on the character that will be using them (Auction house, dailies, etc.)

I am open to second opinions about the rules. However, I will not allow rules that will limit or restrict someones ability to run the game, or mandate that slower routes must be taken.

If you would like a category created under the main leader boards, please submit the run to the forums, as well as why you believe the run should count. New main categories will need at least two separate runs to be added. All runs with only single runs will be filed under the Level Leaderboards for the time being.

Im not sure about the solo queing random dungeons, It would likely create a lot of RNG, for example you could get a number of really good players in the random groups and que really fast. Or on the other hand you could get screwed with long que times which would basically make the runs based on luck in the dungeons.

Again its just my opinion but RNG could potentially make certain runs unbeatable in the future.

If your category is heavily dependent on RNG, then you should use a class that will minimize that. Any class that has full heirlooms is able to solo dungeons, but a Holy Paladin with heals and tank is going to be much more standard and non group dependent when compared to a Holy Priest.

If solo queing random dungeons is banned, that makes a lot of higher level runs unnecessarily long, and requires much more effort than need be. RNG is a factor for almost every game, it's just a matter of how you can overcome and deal with the changes.

Ok, So just to clarify is it ok to use the dungeon finder tool to find a Pick-up-group?

Yes, so long as you do not specifically que with a group of people. You can re-que with the people you get in your dungeon group, so long as they were assigned to your group by the LFG tool, and not added in by any party leader.

I honestly don't think that allowing XP-potions is a good thing. You can get the Elixir of the Rapid Mind from AH, but the Elixir of Ancient Knowledge is purely random to obtain. Farming it from the Nagrand rares is a pain and getting it in the Dread Wastes is tough because the spot gets camped 24/7. Obtaining the potions on average probably take more than ten times the time of a run. And that's kind of optimistic. I would prefer being able to do the runs more often and not having to prepare 90%+ of the time. :)

Also it would make the level 1-10 run take something like two minutes in total and that just because we will have to relog and drive around for 90 of those 120 seconds. It makes it really boring both to run and to watch.

I just started to figure out a bit of stuff and try the things other people did to get their times, but with the potions all of it gets reduced to a contest of who has the best loading times. I am new around here, so I hope you don't take any offense in me dropping by randomly and flooding you all out of nowhere. But I also hope you might see my point. If not, I'd be very happy to hear yours! ^_^

I understand where you are coming from with xp potions. However, the point of speedrunning is to go as fast as you can with all the tools the game can provide you without external help. This is why buying a boost to 100 is banned, this is why intentional grouping is banned, this is why you can't get someone to fly you from spot to spot. If a single account, albeit with a level 100 toon, can obtain the potions through any means necessary, it is fair game.

With your explanation, we would need to ban heirloom rings, because one of them is completely random for getting the quests to get them, and the other is almost impossible to win because of how many people do it weekly. 1-10 with heirlooms is supposed to be the break neck speed of the game, it isn't supposed to be an amazing watch, or anything wholesome. That is what the no heirloom categories are for, and because they are harder, they are worth making sure they are a good watch, and worth the time people put in to them.

If the category becomes 2 minutes long, then so be it. I do not want to hinder a category because it is hard or time consuming to obtain the required materials to be the fastest around.

Think of with heirlooms as the new game+ category, and the no heirlooms as the new game category.

Yeah okay, you kind of convinced me. :D Still think consumables are different from the heirloom rings, but nevertheless it makes perfect sense to have a "no rules" category. Now I have to get some gold to the other faction on some obscure server to be able to run in peace., damn. ^_^

On a sidenote here - is it possible to have a 1 to 20 run to also be listed for his 1 to 10 split or do you need two seperate runs for that? :)

edit/update: Did a 1-20 with no heirlooms. Used LFG for random dungeons from 15 on. It feels wrong. You depend on getting short queues and then a good group. I don't mind for with heirlooms, but in no heirlooms it's super weird. It makes you go almost as fast as with heirlooms if you get a well geared group of people you can make 15-20 in 3 dungeons or so. So you again depend way more on others than on planning your route. The route will make up for a good deal, but having that done well and then just getting into shitty groups will force a restart on the run that is not in your controll whatsoever. Not even true rng.

TLDR - I feel it would be sensible to restrict or completely block LFG queueing from no heirlooms runs. :)

Sadrunslive, you said that the point of speedrunning is to go as fast as possible with all the tools available "without external help". However, receiving XP pots from other characters you have farmed them on is external - it wasn't farmed on the speedrunning character, so the amount of time taken to acquire it is effectively ignored. In an heirloom category where you're already receiving items your character has not acquired (the heirlooms in question) this would make perfect sense; however, in a category banning heirlooms, isn't the point to go without those externally-gained items? Otherwise it's just banning the extra XP boost gained by using heirloom armor, but that's no different than using externally farmed XP potions.

Same thing with getting items off of the auction house or using LFG - you're relying on other players outside of the one you're speedrunning on. Granted, you have no control of these other players, but it's still outside of the influence of the speedrunning character and is not determined randomly by the game (in the case of RNG).

I think there should at least be a separate category that restrict any multiplayer aspects of the game. That way, players could speedrun through the game with a fair and predictable experience in mind.

(This isn't a dick post, I just want to make sure I address all the points you are making.)

1. We are talking about the with heirlooms run. Xp potions, under my view, are considered heirlooms, being that you need an already maxed character to acquire them. The no heirloom runs do not allow the xp potion, and I will not be accepting runs that have potions on them. If I accidentally let one by, let me know, and I will immediately fix it.

2. Using the AH and LFG are built in mechanics to the game. LFG is justified in that you are randomly being assigned players by the game. This is a mechanic that, while not perfect, is better than the alternative, which is that dungeons may only be run solo, which would make the non heirloom runs awful, long, and not even interesting to most players. Auction house is justified in that other games allow you to use shops and what not to obtain a currency, in which you can buy better gear, or what not pertaining to the given game. The same will go for WoW, because if the AH is banned, then gold management will not be a problem as you reach higher levels (cata transition with gear, buying possible boe set pieces to complete bonuses, etc). While I understand that LFG groups are out of your control, you can still run without them. You can que up, and completely run through the dungeon on your own. LFG will stay because at later levels, it is not enjoyable to not be able to use dungeons for your run.

3. If you would like to find a 100% blizzlike 6.2.3 server that does not have anybody else on it, submit me the server, I will double check all the quests, xp rates, items drops, and what not, and you can do your runs there, and I will set up a second category. You can do runs on whatever version you would like, but I will be putting them in a side category, as I am only going to accept current patch runs, and grandfathering in old records as we move in to Legion. The point I am getting at is: no matter what, somewhere in your run, you will run in to a situation which requires that other players be involved. From the local population affecting spawn rates, to people killing rares, you will be affected by the multiplayer aspect, and to ban useful tools because of that are not what I want for this game going forward.

To address Cow in one post:

LFG will not be banned nor limited, as it is completely possible to solo every single dungeon in the game. It is a risk/reward situation. Que for dungeons for more xp, or be more reliable going solo but slower xp. Banning dungeons is not the answer.

Up front - it's completely fine if you do not read all of the below. It's gotten a bit more than intended, the shortest version is: I do not think you can compare LFG to anything else from a risk/randomness standpoint. It is not a choice, it will 100% of the time be the quickest thing to do and thus render our runs the runs of the four other guys who carry us.

Now the wall of text... ^_^

The major problem with LFG is that regardless of your effort (and in no-heirlooms the effort doesn't really do much anyway) the group will be what dictates your speed. So starting from level 15 everything will depend solely on people that are not the runner.

You can't compare LFG to soloing dungeons. Soloing you do not get teleported for free, which is the first huge timesaver. You also do not get the bonus experience for the random LFG dungeons (important for both runs) and you don't get the loot bag (important for no looms). In general dungeons will get you to full blue a lot quicker while also letting you level up a ton faster. Also completing them on anything but a melee class will be the opposite of fast. Which we don't like! And even then you will have to wait for several levels. Soloing dungeons is slower than leveling by quests, even without any optimized routes for the quests.

For questing and just killing mobs you can optimize a route on your own. If a rare is not around, either go grind a few more other mobs for that XP or just carry on without him. I enjoy that part of it. But I don't enjoy having to hope for people that are fully heirloomed to queue with me for several dungeons in a row. For a >1-20 run the dungeons will be the main part of the run and already the 1-20 ones will be completey dependant on the quality of the other members of your group. Not myself. Checking other players runs just to see that they got into a better group is weird, I want to learn from their routes and see cool things because they know and play this game well! I don't care about seing Brewdojr who can pull two rooms of mobs and Kegsmash them into oblivion because he is fully loomed. : /

For any runs that don't go below maybe level 40 I don't see how the AH will help a lot. If you can't use it to buy XP potions, that is. For a speedrun getting upgrades on the AH will only be relevant if you aren't doing dungeons because else you would outlevel them way too quick and they will literally have zero impact. And for non-LFG runs you would rely on items selling fast. Which again is something other humans controll. Not the game as such. Also both the AH and LFG are exploitable and not verifiable.

Potions and looms are different in that looms stay, while potions not. From my limited experience with speedruns you have a lot of games that do some newgame+ or where you use characters that have to be unlocked. But that are one-time things. For potions you will have to come back and accquire them again for every single run. So the one thing that cuts >50% of a run's time will actually take ten times that time to obtain. Whereas the heirlooms just took me some time once. I am not overly sad having them for a heirloom-category to see just how quick one can be. But I would like to have a "fair" heirloom category as well, without potions and for that sake without the rings (Bye to those 10%XP).

edit/update: The potions also need you to get gold on the faction you use for a run. While can get them for Horde, I will have to farm quite a bit to get them on Alliance. The toons I create for speedrunning are the only Alliance characters I have. Leveling up an Alliance character just to be able to consistently get the Elixir of the Rapid Mind on one of those backwater german lowpop servers would be quite a pain. : / My looms just transfer over. As will the Elixir of Ancient Knowledge.

PS: Asked it earlier but kind of got lost in the discussion - can we use splits of longer videos for the segments? I did a decent 1-10 no loom time when attempting 1-20. Can I use the run for both categories or only one of them? Will also be important for when you actually use potions. Less pricy ¤cough¤ It's not like I'd want to use later segments to get to a good segmented time for the longer run. Just use one of the segments for it's own. :D

If I understand your post correctly, you would like the following categories:

1. 1-10 with heirlooms
2. 1-10 some heirlooms
3. 1-10 no heirlooms

And then for the next set, you would like:

1. 1-20 with heirlooms
2. 1-20 some heirlooms
3. 1-20 no heirlooms
4. 1-20 with heirlooms no lfg no ah
5. 1-20 some heirlooms no lfg no ah
6. 1-20 no heirlooms no lfg no ah

And so on and so forth until 100/110? The point I am getting at is that banning things because we don't like them create arbitrary goals. How do you describe 1-20 with heirlooms no lfg no ah? "Reach level 20 with only the non rng heirlooms, without queing for dungeons, and without using any ah."? Isn't that a lot more confusing than "Reach level 20 with heirlooms."

Or, the alternative is that we ban lfg and ah for all runs, meaning 1-max level can never get in to a dungeon, and not use the ah during the run. That is handicapping yourself for the sake of what? I understand that dungeons are based on who you get, but can you not use a tank for higher level runs? Isn't part of the fun finding a class that works well between the goal levels? Isn't it fun having the option to do something instead of just being told "You can't do that." Wouldn't it be nice to have the option to get a weapon off the auction house?

If you want a new category, make a new forum post, get a rule-set together, and get 3 separate people to run it, and I will make it a leader board category. If you can get 50% of current runners (runners with times submitted within the last month) to agree to a rule change, I will add it. Just make a new forum post with "Poll:" in the title, and after a week, I'll tally the votes. I am willing to change to what the community wants, but only if we can get a majority to agree to a change.

Changed my older post a bit. : )

Well, guilds are banned, which to me seem to be a lot weirder than having LFG or AH banned. At least the benifit is marginal at best. 10% Mounted Speed, a few seconds for heathing. That's pretty much it. I think having categories for heirlooms and no heirlooms is a good thing. I don't care about the rng heirmooms. If they are allowed, I will use them, otherwise not. Disallowing them makes the run easier to attempt for everybody else.

The AH/LFG thing is mostly a solo vs yolo debate. Splitting that makes sense to me, since solo will be a lot easier to attempt for others and more consistent. Whereas LFG makes the run completely dependant on other people. Yoloing 10 tries hoping for good parties is okay, but would probably be the category I would try less. ;) The other games I have seen were mostly not depending on other players. Except what I saw at Agar.io, which was completely stupid, but the "fastest to 1000 Mass" run there feels too much like what LFG runs will lead to...

PS: 7AM here now, need to get some sleep. Hope I don't rave too much because of that. ^_^

another (last) edit for tonight: For something like a 1-60 or longer run, I don't feel remotely as bad about having LFG or the AH. Still it will be two different runs. But for a run of that length you can do a lot with queueing for only solo dungeons at set times to get into some you hardly ever see by going for random dungeons and can get quite some XP out of doing the quests there as well. Randomness of the groupquality on average also cancel out on longer runs or at least be less significant.

really last edit: The no heirloom run saying "No Mailbox" in the description right now is kind of misleading. I initially took that as an AH-ban as well, since that uses the mail. So took it as a "you must not get items that you did not obtain yourself".

Yes, you can use splits from longer runs, but they will need to still follow the rules for the shorter category.

A few questions regarding the rules:

Can I interact with myself using my second account? The rules are against some interaction with other players, but don't seem to limit boosting yourself with a second account.

Do I need to use the same account to mail me items? Using my other account saves quite some time.

Are there any restrictions for using AddOns and/or Macros? So far I have not used any, but quite a few are useful. If you can use them, what is the stance on Cross Realm Assist?

Thanks on beforehand!

And also - I really don't spam you with all of this because I don't like what you are doing, sadrunslive. I think it's an awesome job you are putting up with the /wow section of speedruns.com! Checking all the runs and being active and helpful on the forum, I really appreciate that! I also think it is a good thing that you don't just go and change rules after two or three guys whining on the forums. It would make runs not comparable and segment them a lot more. Going against that is generally very sensible. I do feel like some of the restrictions ought to be changed and a few others put in place, but I am happy that you are in charge here. Doing all this work is nothing I would want to have to put up with. ;D

1. No, you cannot use a second account to interact with your running character at all. All actions performed during a run will need to be on the same account, and recorded.

2. Yes, you will need to mail from the same account.

3. Addons and macros are restricted the same as WoW TOS rules. No addons that move for you, no macros that automatically perform a task (run to location a, search for mob, kill, run to location b, ect.). Cross Realm is not allowed, as it requires to you party with another player. The only exception to the grouping rule is LFG/Battlegrounds.