The autosplitters are good for comparisons of segments and runs, and I encourage to use them, I'm still using them for IL runs as well. But the time on the leaderboards will be retimed either way.

With all of today's discussions I'll hitch this thread about current (and possible future) discussions on definitions for IL runs.

The first set of IL runs we had were for Chapters 6 and 7, which start on chapter select and end with finishing the game. This is now called "From Chapter X" and has been extended to the chapters 2 to 7. It makes no sense to add "From Chapter 1" as that is identical to regular Any%

The second set of IL runs we enabled yesterday are runs that start and end only a specific chapter. These are currently called "Chapter X only". They begin on chapter selection and end on the "end of chapter" prompt at the end of that chapter.

There are two more possible definitions, and they depend on what preparations need to be done for future chapters, and what has been done in earlier chapters. Chapter select always starts you with the bare minimum of the chapter.

A "Proper Any%" would be the fastest you can complete a chapter from start to finish. I'll explain at the example of Chapter 3. Chapter 3 requires the hammer, and allows entrance to the tower where you can look out of the window to prepare chapter 4. But you don't HAVE to do that to complete chapter 3. So "Proper Any% IL Chapter 3" would begin by playing chapter 2 to get the hammer, continue to chapter 3 where timing starts, played without looking out of the window, and end at the end frame of chapter 3.

If anyone wants to run that, be my guest, I'll make the category.

Finally, any chapter run taken as a segment of a full run has different rules altogether, because, you will always start with the preparation from the previous chapters, but will also have to prepare the next one. These will be difficult to time tbh since you need everyone to agree on the first frame of a run again. They are however, easy to submit. Again, let me know, if you want that as a category. In that case I would probably rearrange the IL section a little. In the meantime, I hope all definitions are clear now. If not, comment below

Pazuzu is also on board with 2

yeah agreed. Chapter 7 will be as usual

Let me say from the get-go I'm happy to retime all submissions here, both mine and the others, we just need a standard that can be agreed on.

I'll explain all methods at the example of this run:

Method 1: Autosplitter. Probably reliable and consistent, but hacked together by me, also only splits AFTER hitting enter on the "The chapter is finished" prompt, and splits EARLY on chapter select. This is what we usually use for splitting in runs, but would be a disadvantage for people who don't want to use it/ when it breaks. I do NOT recommend this method. Would time the above run to 42.490

All following methods are seen together with the regular starting frame from chapter select.

Method 2: Last frame before the "The chapter is finished" prompt. Unambiguous, always exists, never up to interpretation. I recommend this method. Would time the above run to 40.883. (Thanks to Bernie for the correction from "First frame of" to "Last frame before")

Method 3: Proper Last input: The last input (usually a cutscene skip) before the prompt. Not sure if all chapters end in cutscene, could be ambiguous. I'm not too keen on this method but can get on board with it. Would time the run to 40.867

Method 4: Technical last input: The last input after which only cutscenes are played. This is based on the timing for the end of the game. We split on the last character input. Again, not keen but can get on board. Would retime the run to 40.783

Let me know which of these you prefer and why, or if you have any other. If there's no feedback I'll choose option 2

Very nice, proper speedtech discovery!

Hi, I experienced a crash while running the game. Using Bizhawk emulator.

Here's the VOD with timestamp:

Has this happened to anyone else before? Otherwise looking for recommendations of more stable ROM or emulator sources.

How about this then, for all future submissions we hardcode in the rules that at least 1 second of the boat is shown without touching the oar. Then time starts the moment the oar is picked up. All previous runs start on the fade-in onto the boat. Does that work for everyone?

Hi Mike, just finished watching the run. Yeh for some reason we don't have that written down here, I'll have a chat with Die4ever to write down the precise timing definitions. It should be from hitting "new game/yes/no" to the full fade to black when exiting the final puzzle. It looks like I did not retime my run, which, by this rules would be 56:33. And I would retime your run to 47:04. But I'll check with Die4Ever first

I have reread everything you wrote, and now see that that was in fact meant to be a checklist and not a route. That is fair, but I still need a clear definition of the category. "All Cutscenes" does not work like I said there are mutually exclusive cutscenes, so a choice has to be made. So please clearly define the category.

Then you will have to demonstrate somehow that that checklist corresponds to your category. For example, what if there is a cutscene that you don't know about? If that's not included in your checklist, then there's a discrepancy between what you claim and what is reality. And "Trust me bro I know the game inside out" is not a good argument. You wouldn't trust me if I said I ran 100m in 9 seconds.

And finally, as both Bernie and I have stated, it is extremely difficult to verify that a run indeed satisfies the criteria of that list. How do you propose a mod checks that everything on the (insanely long) list has been fulfilled? You can't ask us to do multiple hours of checking that you've done everything in a 1 hour submission every time you submit a run, you know?

Again, this is not about your route. Routing has nothing to do with the definition of the category. It's great that you've played it a lot and we appreciate your experience and willing to contribute. But it's an organizational problem, not one of experience. I don't know if this will help, but here goes: If I run along the street for a stretch of what I think was 100 meters in what I think was 9 seconds, I'd be the WR holder for the 100 m sprint. However, for others to accept that record, I need to prove that it was indeed 100 meters (confirmation of category) and that I ran it in 9 seconds (proof of the run). This seems easy at face value, but what is a meter? I can't just get a 1 meter stick and mark it off 100 times, it will be to imprecise. There is an independent athelets body that can make official 100 m markings on a track for official races. What we need you to do is give a clear and unmistakable definition of what your category is. There is no instance of the game that tracks items or cutscenes or any other progress other than plot advancement. So you have to

1. Clearly define the exact ruleset of your category in a way that cannot be misinterpreted.
2. Give a list of all the things that need to be checked off in order to qualify for your category.
3. Then and ONLY then can routing begin. You cannot route a run that doesn't have a clear category definition.

I encourage you to do all these things and am happy to discuss everything else, after you've done 1. and 2. I also encourage you to do a speedrun in an existing category to get into the matter of recording, timing and submitting a run.

I believe the charm and the amulet are mutually exclusive, so you can't have both. Do you have to present every Item to the skull? Do you have to click the skull for every possible hint?

And most importantly, if there's no automated way to track or to confirm that "100%" is indeed reached, it is almost impossible to verify a run as a moderator, because you'd need to have one GIGANTIC checklist to go through confirming a run that you stated yourself to be 45 minutes long... I'd like to clearly state that I'm by no means against your category, and am happy to make it one on SRC. I'm trying to make you see the problems with it.

Umm... That's not what I meant. What you've written here is a Route. As in, your way on how you would PLAY that category. The question was the exact DEFINITION of that category. You say "100%" but what does "100%" mean and how do you track it? What even are all items (some of which I believe are mutually exclusive) and what are all cutscenes (some of which are DEFINITELY mutually exclusive.)? That is the questions that need answers. Not what you think the best route is.

Hi SBerT, sorry for the late response, I don't have notifications on here. My run usues ScummVM which has no speed settings. A quick test showed no significant difference between holding LMB and not holding it. I think splitting boards only makes sense when a lot of people are running, or when someone wants to specifically run mutliple different versions. We have 2 runners. Nothing prevents me from getting an Amiga emulator and doing the run there myself to level the playing field. If you insist on running on Dosbox, please use the default speed setting, unless that is significantly different from the ScummVM speed, in which case I will mandate a specific dosbox setting that is comparable. On RTZ, the entire board had to be erased and rerun because of Dosbox configurations. (see here: https://www.speedrun.com/rtz/news/kyxyrz3n ) and I'd like to avoid that. You can run whatever you want to run of course, and if it differs enough, I'm happy to start a discussion with you and MilkToast on splitting the boards. But also, if you want to run some meme "overdrive" category where you set the dosbox settings to full speeds, be my guest, happy to make boards for that too.

Could someone update the discord link please, or link it with the SRC-specific discord button? The link posted above seems invalid