Here's my document I wrote a long time ago about improvements to be made to the leaderboard:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hagbmMsHxbi9Ed7RsUx1Mla-Jq3zUYKnSe2Je17DvtI/edit

But the real issue isn't really the names of the categories, it's his method of defining glitches that bothers me mostly. He just asks the Developer and that's it, no reasoning further than that. No community discussion or anything.

Also calling it "No Major Glitches" wouldn't be a good idea since the category is actually "Glitchless" but only called "Minor Glitch" due to allowing accidents (which I find a stupid reason to name it different). So that would just cause confusion and imply glitches are allowed, when they're not.

I just noticed there was a new World Record run, and read that it uses a new technique. So how come the "Frame Perfect Trick" is not classified as a "Glitch"? Like there is no explanation for why this would be allowed and other techniques not. I'm really struggling to understand the decision to allow it, since last time I asked you about what a glitch was, you said the following (when asking about Slide Jumps and Speed Extenders):

There are glitch because it's not intended gameplay / motion by the dev.

(I find this way of identifying what a glitch to be very bad. Everyone has different opinions on what the definition of a glitch is, and I think the community should decide and not the Developers, but whatever)

Now I highly doubt that this "Frame Perfect Trick" is intended by the Developers, which would mean that this is also a glitch, and therefore should be banned in the "Minor Glitch" category. But if it's not a glitch, then by your definition all other "speed glitches" should be counted as tricks and thus be allowed.

Because I really struggle to see how the new technique is any different from "Slide Jumps" or any other speed technique. They are all achievied by getting speed and then getting airborne (either by Jumping or going off a platform/ledge) to keep the speed into the air, but somehow one is a trick and the rest are glitches somehow?

And another reason why I have problems with the rules is that the WR run uses "Speed Extenders" by rolling off ledges to get speed. Which even further is weird to allow but certain moves you can't use to get speed, because reasons?

At 35:28 you clearly roll off the ledge to get speed, then use a Dive Kick, which then Ledge Cancels and preseves your momentum. And the rules clearly states this is not allowed:

The Speed Glitch is not allowed but because of to mutch way to get this glitch appening i allow the minor glitch that can give you speed glitch BUT maintening the glitch is NOT.

But hey, it's allowed since it was by accident? It just feels like a bad category to allow accident, but not intentionally, but it's so easy to do it and it happens all the time and how can you know if it's not on purpose or not?

I just find the rules about what is a glitch to very arbitrary without any logic to them and the rules are very poorly written and not clear as to what actually should and should not be allowed. I wish this leaderboard just was taken more seriously and had some effort into growing the community (the lack of this was the reason I gave up on continuing running this game).

@ShikenNuggets I'm not saying that they don't matter (all runners are valuable for a community regardless of placement), this is not a personal attack on "non-WR" runs. But I just personally don't think there's that much reason to show them, as I just feel it adds clutter, for my own experience. I mainly chase world records (or at least use their runs as a base for my attempts), so that's the only time I mainly am interested in seeing. And if I want to know the 2nd or 3rd time, I will just go to the specific level and that's that.

Also, it's especially annoying in cases where there are no 2nd or 3rd place runs. So it all just appears as a sea of empty spots on the leaderboards for many of the games I run. Which for me is kinda annoying as I like to see everything filled out without any empty spots.

I personally dislike seeing "Second Place" and "Third Place" on the Individual Level leaderboard (the view with all levels shown at same time) and see now point in having it (just pointless clutter).

I really love the idea of seeing a dominant runner having the WR on most, if not all, levels, thus being the only one shown when viewing all the levels. But now even 2nd and 3rd place will be shown, ruining that display of domination. Like who cares about the 2nd or 3rd place, just show me the 1st place and that's all I need to know.

Rule Update

• Reworded the "No Mods Allowed" rule → "No disallowed mods" (Since we now allow the "Melee HD Texture Pack")
• **Loosened up the rule where you were forced to include the game "Loading to the Character Select Screen" after your run → No longer being a requirement, but merely encouraged. ** (This is because some might forget, or they prefer to edit their runs clean for Youtube and whatnot)

Name Change for Individual Level Category

• Individual Level Best Time → Best Time (It's pointless to state "Individual Level" as it's a given. So we removed it to keep a cleaner look)

Added Melee Themed Rank Icons

• The 1st, 2nd and 3rd place now has Melee Themed Rank Icons (It feels more fitting than the standard ones)

Ah I see, well I appreciate you taking the time to answer all my questions. Thank you :)

Alright, that's fair.

But why are the "PC Low Spec Bug" categories up in Misc then? There doesn't seem to be any interest in those categories either as they're currently empty. Shouldn't they also be removed until people want to run them?

I mean I can see why that's the case for "Slide Jumping" as it's a bit more specific and harder to do. But simply dodging or doing an attack off a ledge is considered a glitch? I find that a bit of a stretch. But I won't argue further, and I respect your decision :)

Just a request though if I can, since I find Speed Walking boring and not being allowed to use Slide Jumping makes it less interesting for me. So if you could make a new category though called "NG+ Restricted" (my run follows this ruleset).

I know I'm just coming into the community on a short notice and asking a lot, but I think this would make NG+ more interesting. Thanks!

Rules

• No Speed Walking (Since this is kinda lame and makes movement less deep)
• No Out of Bounds (Out of Bounds stuff are weird)
• No Potions (Makes movement mainly Skill spamming and bosses become a joke, moreso than they already are. You don't need to manage Rage at all. Also means you can never die due to Elixir spamming)
• No Consumables (Same as before, also very strong such as Adrenaline among other ones. Although not used that much since Potions cover pretty much all stuff, but still powerful nonetheless)

This post isn't meant to come off as aggressive or anything, I'm genuinelly interested and want to discuss this topic to get a better understanding of the thought process behind the categories :)

Question In what way are Slide Jumps and Speed Extenders (example: Dash Attack off a ledge to get speed) glitches?

1. Slide Jumping: After sliding you will keep the momentum after the sliding animation has finished for a few frames. And if you jump you then keep that momentum into the air.
2. Speed Extenders: After using any action that moves Vivian off a ledge/slope, you will keep that momentum into the air.

I'm struggling to see how these can be defined as glitches. In my view these are just using momentum and just makes sense? Just because the Developers didn't think intentionally design with these applications in mind doesn't make them glitches. Like if these are glitches, isn't Dashing and then Jumping also a glitch per the same definition?

I get that the Developer said so, but I don't think that's really a good way of defining a glitch. Like if you wouldn't be able to ask the Developer, would you still have come to the same conclusion that these are glitches?

Ah good, I was a bit afraid I wouldn't be able to run the game, but I'm glad that's not the case :) Thank you!

Is Input Display really required for submitting runs? I use a PS3 controller and can't get Gamepad Viewer to show my D-Pad inputs (which I use for movement). I can get all other buttons to work fine though, would this be good enough?

PS: I feel like it's a big barrier of entry to the game to require Input Display. I get the concern for cheating, but requiring Input Display doesn't remove cheaters and just makes it harder for people to get into the game. Especially in such a small and non-active game as this one that needs every single potential runner.

Just for reference I did all my runs on Easy difficulty and with a save already in progress (not really maxed out but not fresh either). Since there's no rules I assume just do whatever way is fastest?

Why wait until it’s approved? If you do it after it will be resubmitted and has to be verified again. Easier to just fix it now honestly.

You can just edit your submission if you want to change the video link.

Currently there's nothing forbidding any type of controller. As long you have no Macros or Turbo buttons you're good to go.

Well I don’t know how the loading times compare with ISO loaders vs original or emulator. But it would be more fair to be put under the emulator category for the time being. If there ends up being an advantage we can split it further or just ban loaders if needed.

Just make sure to mention that you’re using ISO loader (and which one/version) in the submission.

I always think it's up to runners of a category to decided how to approach rules. So seeing as @bwells626 and @ncb1221 is in favor of it and @aMSa already uses it, I see no reason to keep it really banned for this category. Since there's no activity in the category with only a few runners anyway I doubt there'd be any problems with allowing it, and if it could spark more interest or make it more enjoyable to run, then I'm all for that. And if it ever becomes a hot topic in the future, we can always deal with it then and split it or something of that sort.

So unless anyone else has any objections, I'll adjust the rules for the All Trophies category to allow it.

@davidvkimball I mean there's no way to really know whether someone actually uses a specific controller anyway, so it wouldn't do too much to make a rule for that. I personally see no issues with such controllers. I mean SM64 does a similar thing with switching controllers for Bowser throws, so I don't see any real issue honestly.

I doubt it'd make that big of a difference in the grand scope of things in an All Trophies run since it's so long anyway, so I see no reason to forbid it as of now.

But you never know if it might become an issue in the future and eventually banned, so it's always safest to just use standard controllers. But use whatever is comfortable for you as nothing is forbidden as of now.

And since emulator is on PC, using keyboard should be fine, as long the binds are 1 to 1.

@Ford4D The category has runs ranging from 21 hours to 61 hours, there's no way we could manually subtract loading screens for runs that long. Loadless simply isn't an option unless someone decide to makes a Loadless Autosplitter or something. And even then it's not necessary when we have just splitted them anyway.

That’s something more suited for the Category Extensions leaderboards. Try ask there: https://www.speedrun.com/ssbm_ce