United StatesIt's also, to put it plainly, a very different game, like I've stated in my research thread.
There's 4 distinct versions of Ogre Battle that are runnable:
Saturn Playstation SNES SNES Nintendo Power Kiosk
You can make an argument for the SNES:NP version being similar enough, but the others, not so much.
Each have very different RNG schemes and game speeds, as well as some tweaks to spells, tarot, and resistances, including especially the PSX version's buggy implementation of resistances that make them both completely broken and easily manipulatable to make characters invincible.
If it were merely an issue of speed, I wouldn't care, but it's not.
Mod Note: Retimed to 2:30:19 - Tutorial doesn't count toward the time and time ends on the visual indication that you've reached Casca, either Perfect or Objective Complete.
Hey All!
@OG_BOSSCAT recently brought up a good point - should we change the name of the Darkstalkers 3 board to it's now much more common Vampire Savior?
I've always preferred VSAV, but for a while Capcom seemed to use Darkstalkers 3 interchangeably in English releases, so I understand why it was labeled this way initially.
Now it seems like they're preferring the Japanese name for the English locales in new releases (since the Resurrections collection really). It might be confusing for new runners trying to find the game now.
Let me know what ya think!
I can add it this weekend. Feel free to use Arcade if you submit beforehand and I'll just update for you though, no worries.
Turbo 2 is a happy medium. Fast enough to be competitive on the board and get a feel for mechanics at a higher speed, but not so uneven as to mess with learning execution. DS1 has some uneven frame rate when set to T3 that's made slightly worse on the Collection and FB Neo.
Nothing terrible, but it can feel like you're randomly dropping inputs on Turbo 3 even on real hardware.
The Capcom Fighting Collection and the standalone collection releases are valid to run here. They use a variant of Final Burn Alpha or FB Neo for emulation which has always been allowed.
Just note we may eventually retime or separate all of the runs to normalize the board as those versions do run a bit faster than Arcade/MiSTer. It hasn't really mattered in any of the runs yet though.
Most importantly, it limits us in RNG manipulation since a lot of the early game is based on the frame you choose the sex and the leader name. But eh, I could take it or leave it.
If you want to use it, we can create a sperate category set for it, but unless the game has unbelievably long load times (cough some Sega Saturn titles before the ram carts cough) it's usually not allowed for most fighting games by default as it removes transitions.
I'd be happy to add it though!
Aw damn! That's awesome - GG!
I played around with my SNES cart today and noticed some behavior that made me think Ogre Battle had a checksum system. The game claimed there wasn't any data at a reset in the first moments of a save, yet if I dumped the cart, there was data saved for that slot.
Tried to see if anyone else had dug into this first and sure enough, Finshore had...
So the bad news is that Ogre Battle SNES is confirmed to have a checksum, but the good news is it's a rather simple one:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/588541-ogre-battle-the-march-of-the-black-queen/52327806
There is no mirroring or other types of obfuscation, so it might actually be manipulatable with a lot of effort.
Given that the leader and most important data is in the beginning, it may be possible half save over a Fireseal save and still have the same checksum. Like I said though, a lot of effort and testing required, and it assumes a frame perfect reset, and perfect RNG out of Warren's Castle to get enough units to make it possible.
We'll see. If it does work, I think I'd like to see it in it's own category though.
You can go into the stage on a specific seed from the start of the game - that's how this one was done, so it's 1 frame perfect trick and 4-5 moderately precise movements. There's some leeway with how in battle movement affects things. You get confirmation of the seed on the card you draw from liberation, so only the final move into Warren and moving Warren's unit are "blind".
I have a setup for moving Warren's unit that would be almost instantly at the boss, skipping the other fight, but like you say, I'm doubtful it's useful in any% on the SNES. At just barely humanly possible speeds, it still wastes 20-30 seconds for little long term benefits.
I'm of the same opinion on the Crown, while it's interesting, I don't think it's useful for any%. Undead Staff might make sense in any%, but even that is iffy as to wether you'd actually get to use it and if it would really help.
And sadly, my own idea for trade tickets doesn't seem to work out. Luck doesn't seem to manipulate Tarot or items enough to make it worthwhile, and in fact does seem to cause your neutral encounter rate to go up, something we don't want.
Silly thing to note - you can get Wyrms in Warren's Castle, but they're in deep sea, and they share spawn chances with dragons! My real point to all of this was to try to get one as the damage output is way better, but it wastes even more time the chime way. Might be fun to test out charm on Gilbert's Wyrms though.
I think manipulating Jokers with saving/loading is more likely to save time overall.
That said, given the Res bugs in PS1, both charm and chimes would be more useful to grab early monsters with mid game res and I guess while the manipulations for PS1 are hard, they aren't completely terrible.
Soooo, I believe this is RTA viable:
Assuming you fully manipulate Warren's Castle, the next drop in Sharom Border can get you a chime. Keep in mind you can send Warren out early and lose much less time here, you just have to account for his movement while mapping RNG. In battle movement changes the RNG in predictable ways.
After that, your chances of recruiting a level 8 bird are good if you use a chime in Warren's Castle. This should give you a decent advantage in the early game, but I'm not sure if it's worth it really. Charm, Crown, or others might be better and quicker in the long run.
Cards Pulled from Jokers on SNES
I know @Spellzapp already tested this but given the new information on one of the older Japanese sites, I wanted to test the role of luck. From the Japanese Site:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Tarot draw The same tarot card that was drawn last time will not appear when the city / church is released or when the "Joker's Fuda" is used.
The tarot cards drawn at release are not completely random and may only be redone once depending on the tarot card drawn and the LUK of the release unit leader.
Redraw when LUK is 51 or above Hungedman Death Temperance Devil Tower
Magician Priestess Empress Emperor Hierophant Lovers Chariot Strength Hermit Justice Star Judgment World
Probability of redrawing
(Absolute value of LUK-50) / 50
The tarot cards drawn when using "Joker's Fuda" are not originally intended to be redrawn, but due to a bug, a redraw judgment is made and the obtained tarot cards are biased.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
While it's a little poorly translated, as far as I can tell currently, this is accurate. And @Spellzapp is also correct, the cards are entirely deterministic and have an order seeded on the frame you load the game on, based entirely off of Timer 1. The order is designed so that you cannot get two of the same cards in a row. It also is designed to redraw certain "bad" cards and replace them with "good" ones at progressively higher luck values.
I'll need to script up a full test to be able confirm this next part, but from what I can see so far, at 100+ luck on the drawing leader you will never get Hangedman, Death, Temperance, Devil, or Tower card, even from Jokers.
@Dragondarch might be especially interested in this next part - given what we know, it's probably fairly simple to find an optimal pattern for particular cards or sets of cards. There's usually a two frame window on loading the save for getting any particular card (1 frame for a full pattern), and the RNG being based off of T1 means that there's at most only 256 possible patterns. It's likely for a given luck value and Card wanted that a metronome of sorts could be built that would help get the timing down. Perhaps right into LiveSplit or something.
That said, it's probably not feasible to try to get a bunch of a single card without a lot of saving and reloading. Maybe that would be faster over all? I'm really not sure.
I do have a feeling that the lag in PS1 will make things more difficult in general, not less, and that manipulating in lag frames would not be reliable, even if it worked. I have some proof of that too now, but I'll get into that later.
I figured the name scheme only used certain characters for the seed - it's awesome to see the specifics though @NewSchoolBoxer!
My lua code is currently built around fully testing all major assumptions - now that we know the broad strokes, that needs to change a lot. It is possible to call save states from within the code and I do intend to implement that for quick testing in Tarot patterns, Item drops from buried treasure, Item drops for units, Joker pulls, and Card pulls from towns. I'll keep versions that do full tests though, just so folks can confirm anything they want - who knows, could have missed something!
But for all that, I needed to know some basics about each of those things so that we can account for all possible factors that control them... which is what I've been doing for the past month! I've only tested Items from units, but I believe I understand RNG in both SNES and PS1 to a large extent just from that and some not yet terribly in depth testing on other parts.
Thanks to @Spellzapp - I had a lot to go on for the original SNES version!
SNES
This is exciting!
RNG seems to be seeded to an extent by the frame you select the sex or load a save from. It may also seed from the frame you save a game on. The Tarot cards you have also seem to play a role in the seed as well. Not sure on the name yet, but obviously it wouldn't matter much in a run.
This means that if you have the right Tarot cards and start the game on a particular frame the next unit you kill can be manipulated to drop an item!
There's a catch though - the cards you have do affect the RNG even in battle, so you do have to plan out what cards you would use to kill the unit in question should you need to use cards. This would make it prohibitively difficult to manipulate things later in the game, though not impossible.
Well no, I lied - two catches - not all items are available for drops on every seed. But the good news is that only Timer 1 seems to be used in the frame count for the seed, so the same items would repeatedly be available on every cycle of T1. In general, it actually appears there's a 1/10 of a chance at a drop from enemy units and I'm not sure if luck affects it on SNES.
In practice it would be 1 to 2 frame perfect inputs and 4 moderately precise movements to achieve an item manipulation on the first unit in Sharom Border. You'd likely lose 20-30 seconds in all going for the manipulation.
PS1
This is not so exciting, but there's some info I'll get into later that is!
RNG is seeded on T1 and T2, and the seed is set on specific confirmation inputs. So at specific times you press x (generally any final confirmation, like confirming after a tarot selection in battle) your seed appears to change. Your current tarot cards also seem to have a role in the Unit drop RNG specifically.
This makes manipulations for this HARD. The good news is that you can load from an in Battle Save and with just 3 frame perfect inputs (Save load, Battle Start, and Tarot card selection confirmation). Seems a bit daunting, but there's plenty of other games that have 3 frame perfect tricks in a row, so why not Ogre Battle! =P
The good news is, it does seem like there is a greater frequency of drops on PS1 because of the higher variability, so in all likelihood, some backup strats for a bunch of items could be utilized as well.
The bad news is of course that loading from a save in battle is slow, and you'd need to do it from a cold boot too if you wanted a slightly less complex time of things, as resetting to title does not reset T1 and T2. It would probably cost over a minute or more to attempt, but since PS1 seems to run faster, we have more room to play with. If it's helpful enough to try? That remains to be seen.
Archive.org Deep Dives - or that one time Krayzar spent a day translating Early Japanese Ogre Battle Web Rings
So... I confess I've been using Deathlike2's FAQ as gospel about the game for years and realized I had no idea if any of it was really valid:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/588541-ogre-battle-the-march-of-the-black-queen/faqs/48963
The more I looked into things, the more I found it utterly iron clad. Which was disturbing. Most of the guide was written before a lot of this was easy to test. Especially my observations that SNES had an almost exactly 1/10 item drop rate matching the guide perfectly was spooky.
So I looked into the sources - and some more content on now long dead webrings...
http://ogre.org/ - Still up actually!
https://web.archive.org/web/20050310110035/http://nikki.kdn.gr.jp/rising/index.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190316232151/http://space.geocities.jp/fireseal63/ogrebattle.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20200926010725if_/http://www.carbuncle.jp/og5/5_map.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20090212233539/http://www.geocities.com/xesmeraude/blackmantle.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20070821205026/http://www.houseofwacks.org/ogre/
The most interesting things by far are:
http://ogre.org/ogrebattle/OB-PSbugs.html - I was aware of the resistance bug, but was unaware of the extent it can be manipulated! This is probably more useful than item manipulations for PS1.
Demo of it here, using the Ogre Sheild:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190316232151/http://space.geocities.jp/fireseal63/ogrebattle.html - the info on Tarot redraws based on luck value illuminates a few quirks that can be seen with my monitor scripts. Most of this info is known due to work on a hack back in 2005-2007, which is interesting.
https://web.archive.org/web/20050310110035/http://nikki.kdn.gr.jp/rising/index.html - in the Basics faq, there's a reference to a secret Battle test that's accessible:
★プレイステーション版のみ ◇バトルテスト … 編成画面で、２ＰコントローラのＬ１、Ｌ２、Ｒ１、Ｒ２、ＳＥＬＥＣＴ、ＳＴＡＲＴを押しながら、１ＰコントローラのＳＴＡＲＴを押すと、味方ユニット同士で戦えるモードに入ることができる。
★ Pureisutēshon-ban nomi ◇ batoru tesuto… hensei gamen de, 2 P kontorōra no L 1, L 2, R 1, R 2, serekuto, START o oshinagara, 1 P kontorōra no START o osu to, mikata yunitto dōshi de tatakaeru mōdo ni hairu koto ga dekiru.
**Translation: ★ PlayStation version only ◇ Battle test ... On the formation screen, hold down L1, L2, R1, R2, SELECT, START of the 2P controller and press START of the 1P controller to enter the mode in which allies can fight each other. **
I'd love to play with this, but I can't get it to work on either of my copies, Japanese or US. I feel like I've seen a video of this though. If you can figure out how to get it working, let me know!
There's also references to a lot of Saturn only content and items - and where to get them!
Finally I managed to find an absolutely bonkers Japanese Ogre Battle commercial:
I love it.
Sorry, it's been a busy week! I'd meant to fill in the video description with the important details and a TL:DR. Actually got around to doing most of it, but I promptly fell asleep before clicking save. That's fixed now!
I'll link the vid below:
Just to answer your questions...
Is there a modern way to read/write to load a different game on it or to extract the save file?
Yes! There is, and it's rather accessible if you have a Super UFO 8, though I'd imagine other solutions that have full cart pins and a way to run SNES code would also work. Here's the thread with the details - gets good around the 3/4ths mark, but contains the entire history of figuring out how to program them: http://archive.nes.science/nesdev-forums/f12/t11453.xhtml
Long story short I was worried I might get ripped off when I purchased my NP cart for a price that seemed too good to be true and researched how I would dump and program them extensively.
As for save files, solutions like the retrode and Super UFO (and I'd imagine a Super Wildcard with some tinkering) do work to read and write saves to the cart. The save ram, while larger than usual, is still battery backed and accessed in the same ways. I should probably get some pictures of the inside of the NP cart - it's rather unique.
PlayStation lag frames, do we know if those deterministic on real PS1 and PS2 and on emulator? Does the timer still advance lag frames internally?
I'm not sure how accurate Bizhawk's PS1 emulation really is in terms of exact lag frames, but after doing hours upon hours of Fireseal runs and looking at timing in the footage, I can confirm there are periods where button presses just don't register, and periods where I always seem to get a specific card. So they do exist, and they do seem to fall around the timing a TAS lays out. It's just hard to tell how deterministic it is on hardware or emulator.
Now does the timer advance? Yes! At least according to the TASing. And it even seems to pause on specific cards for the duration of the lag frame, and come back right where it would normally be once the frames end... but the rub is it seems that some lag frames may register button presses and some may not in a TAS environment. I can confirm through play that it FEELS like it's rather easy to get certain cards or patterns around where the lag should be, but again, this is something that's rather hard to confirm in practice. It's very likely that TASing is mostly accurate, or accurate enough to allow us to extrapolate a bunch from it.
This is interesting - PlayStation edition seems to have initial card RNG based on not only the frame you select the sex, but also the frame you select your next answer to Warren's question.
This limits the usefulness of mapping the tarot cards slightly in this version. You shouldn't expect to get all of one pattern all the time. That said, it's possible to get most of one! My most recent Fireseal run is an example of a mostly manipulated card set. Sounds intimidating, but frame perfect mashing is sort of possible.
Initially I'd been getting inconsistent results with my scripts, but updating Bizhawk fixed things and allowed me to check what was going on.
@Spellzapp 's findings make me want to drill into the the rest of the games next.
Quite frankly ELO gave no notice, and has no policy that moderators are responsible for any comment content, so it is entirely on them if suddenly the content on the site gets them in trouble with advertisers.
Honestly we're all trying to moderate comments because it's the right thing to do, but maybe we treat this like the bots thread and point it out and let them handle entirely. They implemented this, they deal with any consequences.
@Meta - You and the team need to poll users and involve (or at the very least give notice to) your volunteer moderators in changes that require more time and effort from them. You're (ELO) on thin ice already with a lot of folks, and whether that's fair or not in general, in this instance you and the team have not been very communicative over the Comments issues.
It would go a long way in restoring faith if you announced exactly what will be in these site updates before they go live.
I've received a few private messages asking if I tested the differences between console revisions. I only own two and can't really be very scientific about it, but I do have a 1chip and non-1chip.
Here's the footage:
It's statistically insignificant, but there appears to be an incredibly slight speed difference for Revision 0, or 1.0 carts (the ones where the Star Fox logo is noticeably more red) on non-1chip. No difference on the later revision in attract tests. That doesn't mean there couldn't be differences later on, but I suspect the console revision wouldn't matter enough either way.
