I've gone under the edit game settings for the leaderboard and have now set Demon Hunter as a valid submission for "All Categories" for the main board and individual raids!

I've ran a test of the submission options, and it appears Demon Hunter is there, one option above the bottom option for my view. If you can Conjured, see if this is something you are able to see as well, and we can confirm it was added to the board!

I can see the reasoning behind potion and no potion now, as it doesn't share the item quality. I wouldn't mind going through and watching which ones (and sometimes, time is obvious) which used 0, 300, and 600.

It may fracture runners, but it's going to make runners realize what they are getting themselves into. The potion runs are actually rather optimized, and a newer runner may not want to take these on, especially if they aren't as financially invested (gold-wise), nor time-wise to have a lot of time to run.

Edit: The newly added IL's, which are shorter, and the new method behind IL's and Dungeon runs I think will bring in a lot of popularity. Heirloom runs are fun, but once again, it's almost as if we need a max toon to be able to do these, so why not have a separate board for the higher toons, who may have already gotten decent times in Heirloom runs, and also dividing it up once more to 0%, 300%, and 600% divides that investment up once again. I think me and Conjuredbiscuit just had that idea simply because it was a wording stipulation, and experience stipulation.

This is something that the community has been having some discussion over for quite some time now, and after reviewing the potential for a leader board for Individual Raids, I decided to implement, and create the entire Individual Levels board earlier. I've added all of the raids listed below, as it is every raid up until the release of WoD raids. I figure until we transition WoD off of our leader-boards (huge community discussion in the distant future).

Molten Core Blackwing Lair Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj Temple of Ahn'Qiraj

Karazhan Gruul's Lair Magtheridon's Lair Serpentshrine Cavern Tempest Keep Battle for Mount Hyjal Black Temple Sunwell Plateau

Naxxramus Obsidium Sanctum Vault of Archavon Eye of Eternity Ulduar Trial of the Crusader Onyxia's Lair (85) Trial of the Grand Crusader Ruby Sanctum Icecrown Citadel

Baradin Hold Bastion of Twilight Throne of Four Winds Blackwing Descent Firelands Dragon Soul

Mogu'Shan Vaults Heart of Fear Terrace of Endless Springs Throne of Thunder Siege of Orgrimmar

• While many may, or may not be against this decision (granted, it was a personal one), I feel like it being away from the main board, a completely separate board, isn't hurting anyone, and possibly new speedtech could be discovered through Individual Raids.

• With individual raids not requiring the farming of heirlooms, certain rings, expensive potions, and rare elixirs; I feel like players can still crush their old raids, farm their mounts, but submit times with confidence.

I'm open to all discussion, opinion, organization of the board, and more. As far as verification is concerned, I'm not burdening sadrunslive with the mundane task of having to organize that board, nor verify, but he is all-willing!

Positives: Separate boards, playing their mains, chances of mount drops, chances of rare drops, in general, less RNG for Rare Mobs. Possibly even more competitive.

Negatives: Getting people to start recording and uploading individual raids / small video files. It being more activity feed for the game in terms of records, but users can turn this off themselves in their own options for the game.

I appreciate the addition to the WoW Moderating team for speedrunning. I also believe we share a lot of the same mutual cares and respects about this game being more than just an MMO, but also a speedgame.

• My main goal is to keep improving, keep finding more routes, and to ensure the integrity of WoW isn't "meme-filled".
• By "meme-filled" : I mean like you stated, a lot of categories are arbitrary modifiers that make slight changes.
• There was a debate a long time back I remember about allowing heirloom rings, but here we are :p

The only thing I can say about me getting more runs up and getting the videos up, is that I render everything from OBS, then re-render to compression in Vegas to about 500mb, and that's about 8 hours to upload on my crappernet. That's the only reason I was using my submission spots as place-holders, they aren't on the board yet, not verified, and are more so I can edit the posting sections without "mod, he edited it again", but I do also want to help, of course.

All Vanilla Dungeons All Crusade Dungeons All Wrath Dungeons Level 1-20 (No Heirlooms) Level 1-20 (Heirlooms, 0%)

(I plan to have videos completed, uploaded, and rendered within 2-3 days for these categories).

I, could honestly care less about Raids eventually getting their own tabs, I think raids are way to much of an over-world thing / should be a group effort thing anyways. Blizzard already sponsors guild-races at events to speedrun raids anyways, that's exposure to it enough that we don't need to do it, it would be arbitrary to add here I feel. I'd say into the future there's possibly a chance we could do IL boards, but that's still a far stretch for Raids.

C~

One of the only things we have asked for, that wouldn't be too hard, would instead of using Potion and No Potion, is it possible to have three tabs set to (0%,300%,600%) this isn't adding more categories, rather just organizing our board further, and there's an in-game stipulation to that titling of a category, because they could of used an Elixir. This was just a suggested by myself and biscuit approved to be a good idea.

If possible, and applicable, I would like to apply as one of the moderators of the World of Warcraft speedrunning posting community. As such, I'd do my best to provide the best resources I could, and time, to the community.

I have nearly 11 years in knowledge pertaining to World of Warcraft, it's lore, it's changes over patches, and other misc. information. I have nearly 4 years in high-end Ocarina of Time speedrunning and routing experience, and I am easily approachable for help and encouragement (concerning routing and running, etc.), and I'm always active and would know what to look out for during verification.

This isn't to say sadrunslive is doing a bad job, but it would allow us to have some extra man-power when it comes to verification and postings. I'm very active on the forums, and am adamant about introducing guides and resources, that of course would take some time to produce.

[ Some of this kind of information is archived in old threads, where it should be in Guides or Resources ].

Sorry to post so much, but this is an extension to the All Dungeons and tabs talk. Their tabs can be there, but then they could also be sub-tabbed just like Potion currently is, and hopefully will change to the % method.

So change: All Vanilla Dungeons To have: [Solo] [5-Man] tabs. Just another flashback from earlier talk, but kind of needed to be brought up, take care of it all in about 20 minutes of editing tabs and sections.

¤ Also, note: Adding the rest of the "All Dungeons" for their respective expansions up until WotLK would fill the 2nd tab row B)

¤Before I Forget¤ Thanks, if you noticed, I could have just said "F" it and gotten a near 34/35, but I was wanting to integrate that good run into a 1-20 run as well. I'll get the 34/35 one day in 1-20. The nerf from level 4 PWS really sucks till later now, that's pretty much what makes the difference in the Draenor and Legion times. One spell change, lol. (Except the Lock runs that are 3min). :P

Thank you, another reason I say that is due to this: He is a verified Youtube content creator and goes about how to get the Elixir. It's harder to get than the potion, which supports your point biscuit. :) The other thing is that these Elixirs drop rates were nerfed due to them "inadvertently" interfering with Level 100 sales, as you could imagine, and mostly are camped.

I't simply why i suggested [Nothing] [300%] [600%], this is also a change that could be made to the 1-20 looms because I plan to do those soon. No reason to make this kind of change ever to 1-10 no looms. :P

It's probably have videos, typed routes for mage, and everything uploaded for those categories, then it'd just be time for someone to beat it.

Anyways, this post will move us on into page two of the discussion!

Potion Categories: What to change, and what to intergrate, with solutions to board complications. Should we instead of having tabs: [No Potion] [Used Potion] tabs. Instead, we should actually have : [300%] [600%] tabs.

Reasons to do it:

• It's simple to weave out the times who used one potion, or two. Checking their buffs at a certain time-stamp and then noting it. Both my and biscuits only used one potion; we'd automatically be placed in the [300%] Category, rather than [Used Potion]. I argue this because the second item is not a potion, but an elixir. Which, it could also be used subsequently to be placed in the [300%] tab if they did not have a Rapid Mind Potion.
• I plan on challenging his [Used Potion] ie: [300%] run, quite soon. It is easy for newer players, as I'll explain later.
• I, and I'm sure biscuit, along with others, would plan on running [300%] and [600%] separately.

This isn't a gold gimmick to players, many of us have some of these stocked up, farming isn't an issue, we still raid casually/semi hardcore, or are other speedrunners. It actually would just expand the board for players who don't have as good RNG getting drops off of the Elixir mobs, as well as to speedrunners who are new who could be helped out by someone with extra potions, who could not easily perform [600%]. Even though it is Legion, not everyone has the most gold or time to consider farming for potions like this if they are a raider and just want to part-time speedrun WoW.

Just a suggestion. It's simple, take an evening to weave the boards, not much to move, add a tab, rename two tabs. B) :D

Moving onto a suggestion about All Vanilla Categories; I have not test run it yet, but i have routed it completely, to the best of my knowledge, for Alliance - Mage - and using a preset Hearthstone used later in the run. It's a start. I'll do a run / pastebin of it for those who could be interested in how I routed a longer category. This brings me onto another topic though that i'm adamant about, and that's All Crusade Dungeons, and All Wrath Dungeons, being added. I'm more so 1/2 way in the process of routing both, and would have runs done, uploaded, and ready to be verified within the week.

Other All Dungeons Categories: what to add, Plus, future discussion. We should have tabs: [All Burning Crusade Dungeons] or [All BC Dungeons] We should have tabs: [All Lich King Dungeons] or [All WotLK Dungeons]

I believe, at this point are short enough, and will have runs soon up on the board for verification.Hopefully, others are interested in running the BC dungeons, as a few of them in terms of routing are much more fun, short, and have rare drops. Heck, mostly all of these dungeons have rare drops. If you make a mistake and gold a segment, just make note of it. It's not hard to do in a run where there's downtime flying.

• Sorry for the long post, just felt I needed to get that off my chest, but also a suggestion and to get us on a nice Page 2 -

¤EDIT¤: I wanted to also get opinions on when they feel they'd feel comfortable enough to integrate "All Raids" for each expansion, needless to say the other "All Dungeons" categories for their respective expansions. I don't mind "All Vanilla Raids", "All BC" raids, and "All WotLK Raids" being added as tabs soon, if you don't mind adding them. I'ts Fri. for me so I'm getting ready to clear them over the weekend. I could quickly optimize a route for mage, render, and get it uploaded for verification as an example run. If that sounds like something we could work on, let me know.

HUGE +1 on the Vanilla Solo Dungeons, the next thing to integrate I would say is through Wrath.

Solo Vanilla Dungeons Solo Vanilla Raids Solo BC Dungeons Solo BC Raids Solo Wrath Dungeons Solo Wrath Raids

With the same rule-sets as we mentioned before for solo, that all bosses in the adventure log must be killed, including the final boss. (Difficulty does not matter).

Edit 11:52pm: I'd say if these caught on, it would be time to move Cataclysm inwards into the list, dropping something else, but that will be some time into the future of course. It'll be gradual change, but better for the boards, and runners alike.

I'll be attempting more runs of no potion tonight, I've thought of some interesting innovative ideas that might completely change and spice up the route than what everyone is used to, even without pirates, we'll see! :)

I didn't know the tab option went further into the drop-down than that, so I'm glad we could separate those categories out further. That means that 5 Man Heirloom Groups and 5 Man No Heirlooms Groups will have easy tabs to define them as well. :)

• appreciate the work sadrunslive Kippa b

@myself edit, I see what you meant now! Now I get to grind towards the low level without potion now ;) thanks for the inspiration. After that I'm doing the heirlooms 20, 1-20, and then if we get some sort of board idea established for the "All Dungeons" and "All Raids" for their respective expansions, I'll work on those.

Unfortunately, as mentioned as before, doing something more along the lines of "Individual Levels", or anything like that wouldn't really serve any good purpose in a MMORPG speedrunning game; however, given two positions:

1. Solo - you clear All Classic Dungeons, time the travel in between them, beat all necessary dungeon bosses, at the end, that's the end of the timer. No restrictions, obviously it's a max character. 2 [5manHeir] and [5ManNoHeir] - these would be more so dedicated groups of players who want to get together, similar to those in the Borderlands 2 crowd and do team runs. The Heirloom runs have less restrictions than the NoHeirloom runs. I'll separate out the full leader board once the tabs are made and I could type rules out.

As far as Potion vs No Potion this has been around since Season 1, and it wouldn't really make much since, and would add a little clutter, to the rest of the board we are currently trying to clean up, make more new-runner friendly, while also making it veteran viable. I personally only used one potion, if any other person decides to use two, and just gets one or two rare spawns, they've got me beat. It's that simple with the extra 300%. The real challenge is when we get people interested enough to spend 18-20k per attempt of RNG on some level 4 and 5 elites to get to level 10 the fastest. O.o

To respond to the first part of the post, perfect! The lower level bracket there can encourage some Legion action for sure, I know at least myself, biscuit, and maybe a few others are interested.

(Solo)

• As far as Dungeonmaster Clear, which as stated, we can have a category or drop-down for the other expansions. The idea here before was that it would be a requirement to kill ALL BOSSES in dungeons, but they could use items, such as invisibility potions, speed potions, etc., to progress further and more quickly through the dungeon, Also, there are a few exploits where you can make dungeons and npcs move faster, that, could be allowed.
• The same can be done for Raidmaster Clear, which as stated, we can have a category or drop-down for the other expansions. The idea here is that no matter what, you kill all bosses within that specified raid. Most can be done solo, with some ingenuity,

(5 Man Heirlooms, Potions, Gliders) | (5 Man - Vanilla Style)

• Pretty much the same rules, but now we have restrictions being added.
• Guild mounts and heirloom mounts, and gliders, are allowed on 5MH runs. ¤Note: If a 5MV group gets Goblin Glider Kits from Blingtron, they can use them, even though they didn't craft them).
• Standard no interactions between other players, guildmates (unless they are your runners) etc. This means trading.
• Items that you use must be made by you, picked up by you, or sent over as a restriction during 5MH rules.

(Log into character first, then mail items over, then use them for the login penalty, this penalty or rule cannot apply or be applied to runs that are choosing to do a Vanilla-style route.)

The issue here is we are going to want a Solo board, and I don't think IL's like "Fastest BT" is going to attract more runs, I do; however think that "All Classic Raids", "All Burning Crusade Raids" as mentioned above, all bosses, including the time to travel between the over world, those would be very intriguing to watch how people route.

I've just been rooting for this game since back in Dec. of 14 to eventually grow, and to see it's something, it can take off. I'll personally work on runs and route each of the "Dungeonmasters" and "Raidmasters" for each expansion and speedrun them so we have board submissions and others could try to emulate what I do, and go faster?

In terms of finding a run that supports an "All Dungeons" run, so that a video would already be on the category; here's one: it's outdated, but can be a placeholder for "Classic Dungeons", or whatever the final names could end up being.

Well, there's an option to separate them out through the drop-down menu, but do you mean from default front/leaderboard?

If you mean a Potion tab and No Potion tab, it's optional, but the point is to farm and get the potions. I only used one, if I had used both then the time would have been devastating.

What I'd like to see removed that we can work with right now:

• Remove 1-110, we currently have no submissions, nor does it encourage more runs.
• Remove 100-110, we currently have no submissions, nor does it encourage more runs.
• Leveling 1-20 With Heirlooms should be a main category. (same rulesets as others)
• Leveling 1-20 Without Heirlooms should be a main category. (same rulesets as others)

Either something similar to that for now, just to encourage more running, or to start integrating more categories onto the board that we can adjust the ruleset to in the first days. The "All Dungeons" categories for various expansions are nice, and I like how it could be separated out by group (heirloom/no) or solo mains.

These above categories can then be translated into their elder expansions version. ie: All Vanilla, All BC, All WotLK, as intended before.

@sadrunslive : response from cdgexe "There's Only Two Ways" Solo, or 5-Man.

I'll try to cover everything in a BIG post here. It depends on what you want to do in "All Dungeons". If you wanted to cover "every" dungeon in the game, including up to current patch, that would be a long run, and couldn't really be done "solo". I'll explain other details below:

• dungeon que, it would be a bad idea, unless we are wanting to do a distinction between 5-man and solo.
• rng deciding groups? this is just simply a bad idea. there's no speed potential here.
• having your friends spend money twinking toons is pointless at this point in the game, when we already care about our mains.

Now, you could for example do: Stockades%: Create a character, from initial file load, and beat the Stockades. (short, fun, memeish, leveling, solo).

All Vanilla (Solo): Use your main character, powerhouse through each instance without forcing a "too many" instance error. -Timing Starts at the beginning of logging into your character into a predetermined position. This can be in front of the first instance that you would like to complete of the "vanilla" dungeons.

• Using Teleporters, Portals, Teleport/Portal spells, and Hearthstones are allowed to navigate the over-world.
• Using Mounts are allowed.
• Using items to otherwise teleport you to other locations are allowed.
• Using specific items to gain speed in instances / dungeons are allowed.
• Sequence-breaking dungeons are recommended, and allowed. No exploits.

All Vanilla (5-Man Group [Heirlooms/No Heirlooms): Create a character, from initial file load, and beat the defined "vanilla" dungeons with a group of other specified members / runners.

Heirlooms

• Timing starts when a member of the group has hit the "log in" button.
• Members do not have to complete, level, or do any dungeon "together". They may separately complete them, as long as each member is eligible to que for it at the time it is being entered by another member.
• Using items to otherwise teleport you to other locations are allowed, if you, or party members made them.
• Using specific items to gain speed in instances / dungeons are allowed, if you, or party members made them.
• Sequence-breaking dungeons are recommended, and allowed. No exploits.
• Timing ends once all defined "vanilla" dungeons have been completed.
• "Death Warps" are allowed. [Essentially, dying at a low level to use the spirit healer to place yourself closer to objectives.]

No Heirlooms

• Timing starts when a member of the group has hit the "log in" button.
• Members / runners must stay together, and complete, any dungeon | instance they complete.
• Using items to otherwise teleport you to other locations are allowed, created by yourself or others of the run.
• Using specific items to gain speed in instances / dungeons are allowed, created by yourself or others of the run.
• Sequence-breaking dungeons are recommended, and allowed. No exploits.
• Mounts are allowed.
• Portals / Teleport spells, Hearthstones,
• Timing ends when the last dungeon has been completed by the group.
• "Death Warps" are allowed. [Essentially, dying at a low level to use the spirit healer to place yourself closer to objectives.]

Something I brought up around the end of 2014 on the SpeedDemosArchives Forums was an idea about World of Warcraft speedrunning and categories. I've looked through the previous forum posts here on the speedrun.com page for World of Warcraft about suggestions as well, and thought I'd supply a few of my own:

• All Classic Dungeons (RTA)

• All Burning Crusade Dungeons (RTA)

• All Wrath of the LK Dungeons (RTA)

• All Cataclysm Dungeons (RTA)

• All Classic Raids (RTA)

• All Burning Crusade Raids (RTA)

• All Wrath of the LK Raids (RTA)

• All Cataclysm Raids (RTA)

¤edit: of course we would want to include the time taken to travel between each of the dungeons, giving the run some of the site of the overworld. it doesn't really matter that their flying dungeon to dungeon, but who knows, maybe certain flight routes are faster or slower.

¤edit2: i don't really think of this as anyway of us to inflate categories onto the board, or any of the sort, rather I believe it will allow us to utilize characters we've built from the ground up, doing a repetitive speedrun type motion, rather than doing the same with a level 1.

¤edit3: i really don't think Individual Levels works well at all, but categorizing them as a group, this i can see as a good idea. complete a dungeon, hearth or teleport out, and get to the next, once your "expansion's dungeons" are done, speedrun is done.

You get the point. Right now, I think it would be easy, and simple to keep it on a basis of (Normal) modes only, nothing being in a (Heroic) mode [unless it needs to be], and to just play characters that you would normally enjoy playing the game on, anyways. If these categories were added, I'd personally spend the next day or so completely filling out and routing them to the best of my ability for Mage classes and non-teleportation classes with Hearthstone.

There would be a strictly defined ruletset, but this is one way to get speedrunners out of the leveling mentality and into one more of "completing" an entire section, or portion of the game's history or lore.

There's much more that could be posted about, including a more defined ruleset if it was to be accepted, I personally wouldn't mind sitting down and watching hours of runs like this, it'd be more fun and interesting to me. Let's hear some community opinions?

Technically, best in this case depends on the route and difficulty of what you'd like to learn. There are very few differences between Nintendo 64 and Virtual Console routes; primarily one just being faster however, the Virtual Console route is predicted I believe to save anywhere between 45s - 1min., according to Zudu.

In terms of just pure speed: WII VC NTSC, 45-1m. faster with the same route as 64.

If you want to do other stuff, and try out N64 stuff on other charts, you can try this kind of stuff here: I'd say just pick yourself up an N64, believe it or not, the cart difference won't matter here. 1.0 allows you access to the Blank A glitch, but we don't use it to acquire chus. 1.1 forces you to learn and practice with RBA for bombs and Blue Cojiro for when you'd like to branch out to further runs. ^ this has no connection to Child Dungeons, but Child Dungeons 1.1 is fun, with RBA'd bombs.