United StatesI'm not even sure how to respond to you Pixql. If you legitimately think that there is no challenge involved in speedrunning whatsoever, then you are either god's gift to gaming (which judging by your profile, you aren't) or you are very very misinformed.
Edit: To address the rest of your post: "if people want to run it why not add it llol." Alright, well I want to run NG+ Level 1 No Magic/No Armiger. Should I add that up on the leaderboards too, just because I want to run it? No, no I shouldn't. It's arbitrary and pointless. That is flawed logic to assume just because one person has an idea that it should be added to the leaderboards.
"points you made are dumb" Umm, okay? And X person is an awful person for voting for Trump. Why? I don't know, they just are.
Personally my feelings are that because of how this game handles NG+, (doesn't reset your level, carries just about everything over from the previous playthrough minus Regalia Type F) that it isn't a category to be taken seriously. NG+ takes away any bit of challenge that the game already presented by being able to trivialize every fight in the game by killing every enemy in 1 magic cast, including most (or likely all) bosses. I personally can understand doing NG+ for fun, but nothing more than a fun category.
Posting to provide an update on recent leaderboard changes and the direction we will likely be going forward with. As of today, I cleaned up the leaderboards a little bit to make them look better after hearing some feedback that they looked a bit messy. Previously the platforms were set as subcategories as well as the difficulties, but I now changed it so the platforms are full game categories and the difficulties are subcategories. Leaderboard functions exactly the same, just looks much cleaner this way. Dealing with Hard Drives moving forward, we are likely going to leave them as a variable rather than a subcategory. If we were to add hard drives as a subcategory, the leaderboard would be very cluttered with way too many categories, and we would run into this scenario where many people are all running one different category and little competition would be had between anyone as everyone would be split up into their own category.
I don't imagine a game like Final Fantasy would be getting big game changing updates changing game mechanics, but potentially minor glitch fixes and smaller content patches (more than likely extra side content). Likely wouldn't have a significant impact if any on the speedrun, but can't say for sure until we see any future updates :)
No worries gamebrain all good :)
Damidget for the most part said what my intended message was just worded differently. I felt personally that NG+ Hard mode was more on the arbitrary side of things and is better suited to be placed under miscellaneous rather than acknowledged alongside the main categories.
Edit: Also to respond to Lewddolphin. The purpose of my "LR Easy DLC NG+" example was merely to give an example of how I could produce a category that would be arbitrary, and apply the same logic to it in regards to leaderboards.
Edit 2: I think the way it is set up now with the change DaMidget made looks good.
How is what I said not legitimate reasoning? You both disregard my points without elaborating. Other games may have NG+ categories but the context isn't the same from one game to the other on how each game handles NG+. Following the logic spoken in this thread: I decided I wish to do a LR Easy DLC NG+ run tomorrow. I'll get it added up on the leaderboards because more runs only enlarge and help the community, right? I feel that big decisions like this all moderators should have a say in things, and I wasn't reached out to by anyone before this decision was made.
@ExplodingOrange If you feel that my reasoning was "I have never seen a run like this before" then you obviously did not read any of my posts.
Can you elaborate on how I'm not approaching this correctly and what would be "approaching it correctly"?
By "circumstances calling for it" I mean that the game's NG+ doesn't transfer over your character's entire arsenal of equipment and all of your stats enabling you to trivialize everything in the entire run. The challenge is still presented in a NG+ that is set up in that manner, despite not starting fresh. NG+ dash does start fresh on a normal mode game file and works it's way into NG+. I agree that speedrun.com is a collection and leaderboard of runs, but it's at the discretion of the community to decide what should and shouldn't be acknowledged as an official category. I just personally feel that NG+ hard mode is arbitrary because it doesn't start fresh and the power level gained trivializes everything in the run, and as such would like to voice my opinion on the matter as a moderator as I was not involved in the discussion leading up to the category being added.
In the games that I've paid attention to or involved myself with, NG+ has almost never been a thing unless the circumstances called for it. In this case I don't feel that the way that Lightning Returns handles NG+ makes it a suitable category to be officially acknowledged.
I noticed that recently Any Hard NG+ has been added onto the leaderboards as an official category. I hadn't been involved in the discussion, so I wanted to put my 2 cents in.
I feel that adding Any Hard NG+ in alongside the main categories (being Any% Normal, Any% Easy, and NG+ Dash) isn't the best way to handle it. As someone following and being apart of speedrunning for a lengthy time now, I've always seen a speedrun to be defined as starting the game "fresh" and from the beginning with the goal of completing the game as fast as possible. NG+ as a category is not starting the game fresh and very much trivializes the challenges the game presents normally.
While some games, such as X-2, are set up in a way in which NG+ can potentially make sense as an official category, as it resets your level back to 1 and you must progress your character's power once more, LR goes in an entirely different direction by carrying over everything from your previous playthrough (stats, equipment, garbs, abilities, everything.) [Disclaimer]: I don't know much about X-2. I'm just using this as an example.
Personally while I feel that the category should exist in some form if people would like it to, I don't think alongside the main categories is where it should be. I feel that it should be added as a miscellaneous category.
Pretty late to join in on the conversation, but I think the idea you presented is good Midget. I understand not wiping times off the board that went up before the rule was enforced, I agree that is the way to go. This is something that probably needed to be enforced a while ago, but I figure it just went without saying that video proof was required, despite the rule not being noted somewhere.
Hey everyone. Posting to provide an update on the direction that we were looking to go in for the leaderboards as it is slightly different than my initially proposed idea. After getting together with some of the moderators, we decided it would be best to separate each of the 4 available platforms to begin with, as well as the two difficulty options once the game officially launches and we confirm them. (It is very obvious that there will be easy mode and normal mode, but it would be better to wait and confirm.) As far as hard drives, we are going to be looking to do some timing comparisons very shortly after release to figure out how significant the time advantage is. In the case we feel the time advantage is enough to spoil the competitive integrity at the top level of runners, we will be be separating HDD from SSD.
What I mean by "Playstation + would allow the use of any platform and any hard drive" is that any combination could be used. For example Playstation 4 with an SSD would be categorized as a Playstation + run, or Playstation 4.5 with an HDD would be categorized as Playstation +. Whereas a run done on a PS4 with an HDD would be categorized as a Playstation run. My intention is that there would be one category where you could run on the minimum hardware and compete on an even playing field with other runners, but still leaving the possibility to use the better hardware if a runner would like to. Hopefully that clarifies my phrasing :)
Edit: Forgot to mention the demo leaderboards. As far as they go, for the time being I am not sure. When the discussion came up before, some people were in favor of scrapping them altogether as they won't be relevant when the full game releases, and others seemed to want to keep them around. For the time being I don't think it's a dire issue, so we still have some time to figure out what's best for the demo leaderboards :)
@IndDragPack Thanks for the input!
I'd like to address some of your points.
I do agree that if the time difference between the platforms weren't very large (I would say within the realm of just a couple of minutes) that separating wouldn't be as important. However I think this is unlikely that the difference will be minimal. Having come from 13 trilogy and knowing there to be a significant difference between Playstation and Xbox. On top of that when we factor in potential hard drive changes, this gap becomes even larger, and then once we have both the new Playstation and Xbox into the mix, we will be looking at large amounts of variance between all of the platforms, hence why I feel it is important for us to create categories in which everyone can participate on an even playing field.
I don't think that it would look messy at all, in fact I think it would be rather clean looking and easy to follow. I checked out the two examples you gave, and to me it appeared that the Final Fantasy 1 leaderboards look very similar to the idea that I have in mind. The Final Fantasy 10 boards however I feel look quite messy as they have many arbitrary categories listed. I feel that the Final Fantasy 13-2 leaderboards are a good example of what the 15 leaderboards would look like if I am to set up the leaderboards with my proposed idea (http://www.speedrun.com/ff13-2#Any). It would simply be Any% ---> Platform/Platform/Platform/Platform. However the second category (by second I mean the second example I had given in my first post. The order isn't very important, the default that would be displayed likely would be whichever category has the most participants. We could also opt to show the fastest category as the default as well, or simply leave it in a more organized order. Anything works really, whatever the community feels is best.) can't exactly be titled as a platform as it is mostly being defined by the hardware that is allowed to be used within the category. My solution to this would be to set up the categories as follows: Any% ---> Playstation/Playstation +/Xbox/Xbox +. The Playstation category would only allow Playstation 4 and Hard Disk Drive. Playstation + would allow the use of any platform and any hard drive (PS4, PS4.5, HDD, and SSD.) And as stated previously, this would be mirrored for Xbox. The end result I feel would look very clean and the rules would be clearly defined and stated making it easy to follow and understand.
I hope this gives more insight into my ideas for the leaderboard and look forward to more discussion!
@GhostScit Glad to hear you're on board!
@Vulcairn I wouldn't worry about the categories you mentioned (NG+, Glitchless, 100%, etc). Those are all miscellaneous categories and likely won't be run much if at all.
One point I would like to address is a response that I've been consistently hearing for a little while now and I would like to give some insight into my thought process in regards to it. A response that I've heard a lot is "Wait until the game comes out, then think about it." Personally I feel that this is not the best way for us to go about things. While there are some variables we do have to consider that we won't know for sure until the game comes out, with information that we have we can very reliably determine how things are going to be within the game and the best course of action in regards to the leaderboards. As I touched on in my first paragraph, standards are set very quickly, so if we were to ignore the issue, whether ideal or not, a standard would form very quickly. Once a standard is set, people become used to that standard and are very unwilling to change from the standard they have come to know. So by using the information we have to come up with the most effective way for us to set up the leaderboards for everybody, we can create the best experience for everyone from the get go without nearly as much hastle as trying to change an unideal standard.
Hey everybody. Lately I've been putting a lot of thought and effort into figuring out what would be the most effective way to set up the full game leaderboards. I strongly feel that it is important for us to come up with a solution as soon as possible so that everybody feels that they have a place on the leaderboard. Standards are set very quickly and not easily changed. My goal is that nobody feels left out and nobody feels like they can't compete.
With the new Playstation and Xbox hitting the market very soon, there will be 4 different platforms that Final Fantasy 15 could be played on by the end of this year. With different platforms and different hardware, we will see significant variance in game performance and loading, and as a result certain platforms will be significantly faster than others. On top of dealing with the platform differences, there is also a large variance between Hard Disk Drives and Solid State Drives. If we were to not do anything about separating the platforms and everything was a free for all, people not on the fastest platform will feel left out and unable to compete. This makes for an unhealthy and unenjoyable environment for people who can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars to play on the fastest platform. With that said, I completely understand that there are people out there who want to see how fast a game can be beaten on the best hardware available, and are willing to foot a large bill if they can achieve a faster time.
Given all of that, I feel this is the most effective way for us to set up the leaderboards. We would create two categories. The first category would only allow Playstation 4 as well as only allowing Hard Disk Drive. The second category would be an "Anything goes" category. Runs could be submitted on either Playstation and any type of hard drive. We would also mirror this setup for Xbox, making for 4 categories in total. What I aim to accomplish by setting up the leaderboards this way is create categories in which everybody has a place they can compete against other runners on an even playing field.
Banning the use of specific platforms or hard drives certainly isn't the right way to go as some people will have access to these things and wish to use them, and at the same time it is important to not spoil the experience for those who can not afford to use the best hardware. Finding the perfect solution that makes everybody completely satisfied is practically impossible, but I do feel that setting up the leaderboards this way is as close to perfection as we can get. I look forward to reading your responses!
Edit: going to unsticky this thread as leaderboards have been put together nicely and this is no longer an issue.
Whether or not other Final Fantasy games do it has no relevance to what is decided upon for 15. For some games, it's more of a comparison of wallets than actual competitions, so that is what I am trying to see if we can get away from. I was just simply asking how possible something was from a technical stand point as I don't know anything about how people set their splits up to factor out loads. Obviously if it has to be done manually then it probably will just not be done at all, and my hope is that IGT will be accurate if that is the case.
