California, USA@TimsinLimbo Unknown. For safety, install the game using a VM to be sure if it has the drivers or not. Don't take any chances.
I second this, I'd like to try my hand at the any% category but the only viable way to compete against WR is via homebrew, yet it's not allowed from my understanding? Unless I read the rules wrong but yeah, it'd be nice if you guys considered allowing it if it's not already.
Seams in this game are much more broken than any other version.
After some testing on many different levels (still at it), I've found MANY places where you can randomly get stuck in a seam and launch out of it. I haven't found any that are useful yet, but maybe soon.
- The seam jumps in "Nutz and Boltz" are especially interesting. The one used on the PC version works, and even sends you up (a bit slower than PC), but once you jump out, collision and character movement breaks. The opposite side of the platforms seam scale (which doesn't work on PC at ALL), works on N64, but with the same effect. (Neither of these work on Playstation)
On that level there are 2 more broken seams to the left and right (see video, I use the right), which works with specific timed inputs.
- The Seam Jump in "Warehouse Run" to get over the crates also works, and is significantly easier than all other ports
- The Seam Jump in "Toy Rampage" to skip a large encounter also works, and again is significantly easier than all other ports.
No other Seam Jumps or tricks have been found yet, will update this thread if I find anything else :)
N64 version has finally been broken :D
The seam scaling/launching in Nutz and Boltz also works on the N64 version.
Unfortunately, it's currently useless. There seems to be no collision on the platform where the cow launcher is, which is extremely strange.
You can perform the trick in the same exact way as PC. Works all the same, and you even have better air control.
If this is somehow found to be viable and someone lands on the other side, this will easily shave 5 min off of the speedrun, if not more.
Edit: Got the seam scaling to work on the opposite side of the platform, but it has a different effect; You don't get the launch, you just get a normal jump. When scaling high enough, hold C-up while jumping to have enough time to make it to the other side.... Here's where the problem lies...
Collision, and movement is just completely jank when performing the seam scaling. No matter where you jump, how you land, what buttons are pressed, there is almost absolutely no collision to land on. By almost, I mean you can land on the rock that's on the right side (towards exit), then you'll either lose collision after a few seconds, or the character will just move by themselves off whatever collision you're on, while all other collision remains disabled.
It's all very confusing. I see no reason as to why something like this would disable collision at all, it working on PC is even more baffling. I'd LOVE for someone to dig into this games code and find out what in the world is going on here.
Tldr; trick works, but trick breaks collision and movement, thus making it still useless.
Edit 2: After even more science, I found 2 additional broken seams that all have different affects depending on what you do and how you jump into them. Only 1 is actually useful via holding C-up when jumping into it and pressing Z repeatedly. The other just sends you up into the skybox and down back to the broken seam repeatedly super fast (soft lock in most cases)
)This will make more sense with footage. (See latest thread)
Tldr again; Skip found, many minutes shaved off the speedrun.
@PD4FR After watching both runs again a few times, I still can't find any kind of indicator in any part of the run that the glitch will work. It seems to straight up just be RNG, which is really unfortunate. It's also making me wonder if the WR used an everdrive as well, and labeled it as emu by mistake? Hard to know for sure. This is an interesting one and may require someone with an understanding of the games code to figure out.
@PD4FR By any chance, were you using an expansion pack? Or just a normal jumper pack? From what I can tell, it looks RNG, but it's hard to tell. You're going quite fast, I doubt it but maybe speed is a factor? Games like Shadow Man are affected by the expansion pack, so it's quite possible it has something to do with it.
Reading back, I realized I did indeed disregard something you said. You mentioned showing latency info and such, and that is a good suggestion that I entirely disregarded to try and prevent any emulator from being banned. For that I was wrong, it's a good suggestion and if it's required, any emulator that can't use it should be banned. I apologize for that.
@AudiblySmiles "Could literally just make "Show Emulator Speed" a rule and then we'd know if someone is playing at 50%."
This is exactly what you could have said to keep the discussion going, but instead you derailed it by thinking that person accused you of cheating, and pointing out statistics that literally do not matter. (I'm not trying to keep it going please don't take it that way)
Nothing of what you said was disregarded, they just weren't good responses to the issue at hand. This right here what you just said, is a good suggestion.
"Also I am now motivated by this post to get an Original PS2 to put an SSD in an load the game directly to the console"
Bad idea. Runs like shit from what I've tested with it (I have a few modded ps2's)
@AudiblySmiles I went off on you a bit too hard and for that I'm sorry. That wasn't right. But you need to stop and think about your responses before making them (yes I know I need to take my own advice) because all it looked like you were doing TO ME was dismissing the issue as a whole, which I felt was wrong. Idk what you go through outside of this, and I have no place or right to say anything on that. We all have our shit. I shouldn't have said what I said and I'm sorry. Being mad is not an excuse.
The ONLY reason I'm even here saying anything is because I was tagged. I only wanted to give my two-cents and I let myself escalate and I'm sorry. But, my opinion on the original issue stands; this is not a non-issue, and needs to be dealt with before it is a real issue. Not dismissed based on statistics on who runs, which isn't relevant.
@JayTheIdiot Literally all I was trying to say to begin with. It needs to be looked at, and I suggested making specific rules accordingly if need be. I wasn't trying to start shit with anyone at all and I'm sorry for all this, but Mizuke did nothing but give ridiculous responses instead of talking about the issue and what could be done, it's not a non-issue as he states.
"Showing inputs and Frame Times/Latency would be fine as a rule, but some emulators don't let you do that so do we ban those emulators to make it even harder for people with no money to run the game."
This doesn't even make any sense? You don't need to ban an emulator because it doesn't show specific info, that's ridiculous. All you need is inputs and MAYBE to show some emu info if needed. Inputs on screen can be done with other programs easily.
"Not everyone has a system that works well with Duckstation."
This sentiment needs to stop at this point in time. Nearly every phone and laptop nowadays can run this game and many other emulators without issue. I understand that there are a select few that are just outright unable to afford it, but saying not everyone can afford it, is absolutely absurd.
"It's not like there's a flood of people coming to play these games for speedrunning."
As if it matters? All this should absolutely be dealt with, regardless if a games dead or not. (it's not but apparently to you it is)
"The reason I said I don't being called a cheater is because of the implication stated in the first paragraph "You can understand that I don't want to see cheaters or blatantly inaccurate emulators." And before you say well they don't mean you, well I use Duckstation and Duckstation was mentioned in this post. So you will have to excuse me for using what I learned in School for English, my first language."
I seriously lost brain cells reading this. Dude, NOBODY called you a cheater. Nobody implied you were a cheater. The person brought up a legit concern and your ego is SO touched by the word "cheater" that you had to jump the gun and assume you are being targeted. Stop it. Nobody cares what emulator you use, nobody's accusing you of cheating just because you and one or two others run on emu. The person's point is absolutely right when they say the barrier for emu needs to be raised, because it can be easily abused, even by you, (not that you would but I've seen top runners try and cheat too) and it's not a chance to take.
"I also really don't think we need a second massive board rework for thought crimes is needed.
What are you even on about? Nobody said anything about a board rework. It's adding rules in for emulator.
"I'd rather deal with a problem when it happens instead of preventing an issue that is a non-issue based on hard statistics."
This alone tells me you should NOT be a mod in any capacity. You should be dealing with issues BEFORE they happen if you are able to. This is one of those situations, and if you don't want to take it on, but instead argue and call it a non-issue when you are very clearly wrong, you should NOT be a moderator. (EDIT: After some time I realized this is kindof a fucked up take, I don't truly feel this way.)
"If current record statistics don't count as a good example of how much of a non-issue it is then nothing is a good defense."
Current record statistics, once again, are IRRELEVANT.
"We allow people to run using the PC version which has better loading times out of the gate."
Your PC comment is random, pointless, and irrelevant. We are not talking about PC, this has nothing to do with it. We are talking about EMULATORS.
"If PS2, PC and Android Emulators is ok then I don't see the point in increasing the requirements to play on a board that is already struggling to get runs verified."
This doesn't even make sense. Emulators have always been "okay" the conversation here is to add a couple more requirements to protect the board from cheated emulator runs. Do you even know what the conversation is about? Or are you just wanting to argue, for the sake of arguing?
@sportergames That game is abandonware, so you can post the link on here safely without any issues. @CommanderProton I'm not sure at this point in time, this is quite an old thread, but yeah be careful where you download this game. By default it comes with Starforce drivers that brick your PC, though I'm very happy there's a version now without the drivers, nice job to whoever did that ^-^
And to add, what Zoton2 said, I'm fairly certain from my own research is incorrect (could be wrong though), The game installs the drivers when you're installing the game, not launching the game. Launching the game is what activates the installed driver, thus killing your PC. Resetting your PC after installing the game kills your PC as well (At least it did for me)
@CoolHandMike They didn't cause any drama at all? They brought up a genuine concern. Having a run in the game doesn't matter. Rules are what deter cheaters and keeps things in check, doesn't matter if it deters people from running or not, mods don't make the rules for the runners convenience (nor should they ever), They do it to protect the leaderboard.
@NewSchoolBoxer So it wasn't that Xen cheated, he had a setting enabled for doing practice stuff and forgot to turn off cheats within the emu. (iirc, my memory sucks nowadays) Was something small that I didn't catch right away (that's on me). He dm'ed me very very shortly after submitting them letting me know what happened and we handled it. Nobody else saw the dm's though as it wasn't a big deal. Accidents happen.
While I understand what @AudiblySmiles is trying to get at (except for being supposedly accused of being a cheater, that's just nonsense), the times/amount of records are completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter who has what records on what port/emulator, because it absolutely can be a problem if someone knows what they are doing.
The simple fact that certain emulators can be abused via using TAS and such absolutely cannot be ignored, and it's good you brought it up, because in a game like this, it can be easy to miss if someone's using TAS tools or something nefarious. It absolutely can be a problem in the future, and it should be dealt with now before it is.
However, if someone wants to use a broken emulator, that's on them. I'm aware that epsxe is absolute garbage, but that's not a reason to ban it. Sure, it will be innacurate. Sure, it will look sound and play like shit. Is someone gonna get world record with it? I VERY highly doubt it. And if they did, now knowing this information, it will (should) be held to a much higher scrutiny, as emulator runs already are. Most if not all emulators are allowed for ease of access, but if something nefarious is found, then it's to be investigated. I personally don't see a reason to ban epsxe it for the sole reason of other communities do it either, because well... that's THEIR community. There's no set standard to speedrun on emulator. People should be allowed to run how they choose so long as rules are followed and mods pay attention. Bizhawk however, is very concerning, because of how easy it is to abuse, but tbf you can make a TAS out of pretty much whatever emulator you want with the right know-how.
I'm not around as a moderator anymore due to personal reasons, so I won't be able to help further with this other than giving my two-cents. but my personal recommendation is to hold emulator runs as a whole to a much higher scrutiny; Require inputs/emulation information on screen. This is the best way to deter cheaters without banning emulators. If it becomes a problem later, ban them.
