United StatesWe probably should move the SFC FIRESEAL runs to their own (already made) category eventually. There definitely is a pretty big difference in how low each version can go, and more pertinent, I don't want to deal with the hoops we'd have to jump through to correct SFCs current existence there - i.e. make it so it doesn't show up. lol.
Honestly I'm not sure why that was a game category and not just some time of modifier initially. Done, should be all set.
Hey all, it finally happened - someone submitted the PS2 version of Night Warriors: Darkstalkers' Revenge without the arcade perfect settings. So I guess it's time to add categories for PS2 and Saturn since they're different enough.
While I'm at it I think we'll clean up the Normal and Turbo split and maybe remove the Turbo settings above 3 that no one ever runs. We can always add them back if someone really wants to be silly. Nothings really changing except how things look while I move the runs from Turbo over and sunset the Turbo split. I've also separated out some of the old runs to these categories - there's not many.
Just wanted to give folks a heads up. As always, if you want something changed or added, just ask and we'll get it done!
Mod Note: run was originally marked arcade but does not use arcade perfect settings. Switched to the new PS2 category. If you intend to use and submit runs on PS2 version to arcade, you can make the game arcade perfect by doing the following:
Hold R1 down under Options - Game Options and then press "Start" or "O", and you get a secret menu that allows you to change between the different Japanese revisions.
Mod Note: run was originally marked arcade but does not use arcade perfect settings. Switched to the new PS2 category. If you intend to use and submit runs on PS2 version to arcade, you can make the game arcade perfect by doing the following:
Hold R1 down under Options - Game Options and then press "Start" or "O", and you get a secret menu that allows you to change between the different Japanese revisions.
The reason why your real time is higher is definitely lag, but the elevator isn't the only source. Characters being on screen and the number of screen transitions also greatly affects things, as well as your time without clothes to a lesser extent.
Current rules do state that runs end on the last hit on Diablo or the stage boss.
Generally speaking the western rules for timing as established by SDA (and current runs) can be summarized as "first meaningful input and last meaningful action". So the last hit on a boss is usually where things end unless there's some complicated actions to be done after that provides a skill ceiling. Since the only thing to do at the end of a run is to... press okay to proceed... it's not terribly meaningful IMO.
Now for a Japanese style run, most games time until AFTER the credits end, which in my opinion is unnecessary and tedious.
Mod note: This is actually a 2:44.33 by my manual count. Beats the world record by .17. I'll post about adding decimals in the forums. I think we need them at this point! Congrats @bizarreluck !
This is done - Maybe we should roll Max damage into Any%, might make more sense.
Mod note: Time starts when the Excel splash screen first appears.
Mod Note: All sides of the credits screen seen at 32.80.
@Dragondarch - it's definitely an intentional quirk as there's versions of the game where it noticeably doesn't happen. Like on Saturn, where the intro is a movie and the timers can't run during playback, or PSX which has a reset key press that doesn't trigger the opening logo and would make it impossible to trigger and therefore useless to have. Saturn and PSX seem to handle that by making sex the trigger, though you wouldn't notice anything on PSX unless you played with it under emulation due to it's psychotic methods of randomization.
@Sheex - is this on SNES? There seems to be a variance with both Sun and Moon - I've gotten patterns where my mapper scripts predicted Moon in emulation, but upon running it again, or comparing to hardware, it was suddenly sun. That tends to be around the 5th card in a lot of patterns. I think there were another two cards that did that but I don't remember.
Just something to add, by my manual count, SNES emulation via bizhawk is 3 frames faster than a real SNES for OB. That difference came up in 20 or so manual timings, so I think it's pretty accurate.
It is definitely timing dependent. But given that Saturn, like Playstation is a disc based system, you'd need to time after loads for it to be reliable. Disc drives are impressively non-deterministic. I used sound cues for my Fireseal runs on Saturn to try to do this since they are reliably paced.
There's some evidence in the SNES code (supposedly) that the card redraw effects that happen in Jokers and Warren's final card are not actually supposed to run. If you've ever run SNES and got a pattern you were looking for but all of the sudden the last card isn't what it should be, you've seen a card redraw. That happens when your leader's luck is modified enough by the starting cards that it triggers an incredibly small chance to redraw that card based on an algorithm that selects certain "bad" cards to be redrawn or certain "good" cards to be redrawn based on the Leader's luck value + or - 50.
I can tell you it does happen, but due to the inconsistencies on hardware compared to emulator on SNES, it's difficult for me to pin down exactly how the redraw works or if it can be manipulated based on any specific thing the player does. On SNES, that algorithm is (supposedly) functionally the same as the main one due to an oversight and thus keeps track of the last drawn card, but it may not have been intended to. So the behavior we see on Saturn and sometimes Playstation may have been intended as it was meant to be truly random.
I keep saying supposedly because this information comes 3rd hand from translated ancient Japanese webrings that pulled their info from a decompilation project in 2007 that is basically vaporware now. I can't even find the mods that that were supposedly produced with it after days of fishing on Internet Archive.
Certainly could. I have some time for the next two to three weeks (I'm between jobs), so I have some time.
There's also a hacking discord for the series that's already established that might also be a logical place to add speedrunning discussions to, given how much research goes on there. I could also reach out to the Admins there and see if they'd be willing to open things up top speedrunning discussions for the games.
What do folks think is best though?
(Here's a link to the hacking discord incase anyone wanted it: https://discord.gg/SJgC6EUMne )
As far as I've tested the Item from units RNG is fixed on the act of saving/loading, so the strat I was trying for IS actually resetting and hitting a 1 frame window still. It's on a regular interval though, so on emulator I can kinda get it by listening to the music. Doesn't work on console that way, so that way is not very interesting at this point.
So... I've been testing manipulations for 100% and a possible All Stages run for SNES, and I've come to the conclusion that there's something fundamentally very wrong with how timing works for Ogre Battle under emulation, even under Bizhawk's BSNES core.
Emulation is two frames behind actual hardware on Warren's Tarot reading after timing a sampling of 30 runs. My interpretation - since manipulations for cards and items work accounting for this - is that the actual amount of lag under emulation is incorrect in many loading and high CPU situations.
This means currently that we can't trust item manipulations from units under emulation. As soon as there's enemies and multiple loads, things get very far away from hardware in my manual testing.
I've failed over 100 attempts at a chime manip just to see if this kind of thing is viable - and that's odd because I'm usually at least 1/10 on getting frame perfect stuff. So I manually timed some of the recorded failures and realized I definitely got every frame including the target on a 5 frame window. Without some automated way of testing manipulations consistently on real hardware, sadly a manipulation does not appear to currently be possible.
I do own a TAStm32 (TASbot basically) that I use to test some NES stuff for folks, and could possibly try to write something that tests all 255 possible drops from Sharom using @Dragondarch 's manipulation as a base, but unless you want to count chess games, I have had almost no luck with getting things to sync at all on my SNES consoles, and considering the precise timing required, I doubt this will be fruitful.
I'm going to reach out to some contacts in the emulation community and try to see why the lag frames aren't seemingly lining up. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.
Ooh, cool.
For the record, CPT and most of the larger events DO allow Hitboxes and Keyboards so long as they meet the same bar for input handling as a standard controller or stick. There was a recent controversy with SF6 because Capcom changed the expected SOCD method that Hitboxes (and other controller types) were using by default, necessitating a firmware update on Hitbox.
Reference here: Capcom Pro Tour Cracks Down on Hitbox and Other Leverless Controllers in New Street Fighter 6 Ruleset (wccftech.com)
As of firmware 1.4, the Hitbox complies with this and is CPT legal: Firmware Update Restores Hitboxes After CPT Controller Rules Change (esports.net)
But that was only for SF6. EVO and other large events with Capcom games headlining definitely allow Hitbox. Heck Capcom Top 8 was ALL Hitboxes at EVO 2022.
The Hitbox fear is overblown - any game that's not SF6 - it follows the expected SOCD cleaning protocol. You can't charge while holding forward. And even a Hitbox in 1.4 SF6 mode just goes neutral on L+R or U+D, which is arguably less advantageous than stick.
As someone who uses both stick and Hitbox interchangeably, I don't understand the fear. If I can hit literal frame windows on stick just as well as on Hitbox with my nerve damaged hands y'all don't have an excuse. =P
