or alternatively, just have it be a rule that you have to stream/record your game on the main menu screen, like, at new game or whatever, for at least x amount of time (10 minutes, 15 minutes, something like that), and include all resets after that point in the video, or something like that, at that point it should be pretty impossible to know what seed you're on, right? Which should in turn make any manips almost impossible as well?

I feel like this wouldn't inconvenience a lot of people much at all, most people only really join races, and the people that do attempts, well, I know myself anyway, I generally speaking start up the game, then move about my house, get something to eat/drink, take a piss, etc., then come back to it and start stream, so if I just had to start stream before all that and put a BRB on there somewhere, that'd be no big deal at all.

idk man why doesn't someone make a mod for the game that completely randomises the position of the seed counter at console-on and we can just force everyone who wants to play that category to run on emulator, that's looking like the only thing that'd keep y'all happy at this point

so it seems like at this point noone really has much of an objection to CD being renamed and moved to misc so far. If anyone does have a serious objection, I'd say speak up in the next couple days (say like, by monday night America time), or we just move on with that idea, this seemingly isn't an issue a lot of people really care too much about, so I doubt this thread will see too much more activity.

I'm open to being proven wrong of course, but from what I've seen arkild and gcah were the main people against it, and arkild liked posts from me and GFC voicing a want to see it moved to misc instead of deleted, and gcah, from what I can tell you're open to the idea of the category being made misc, so I see no issue with just moving forward with that plan.

But obviously leave it for a couple days to await any further opinions against that mark

I've stated several times that I don't know how RNG manip works well enough to know what would be, but what we need to try to do is get it to a point where any attempt to manipulate RNG would be blatantly obvious to the people who know how it works, outside of the specified set in stone rules. And if we can't do that, oh fucking well honestly, how good the rules are isn't what's going to determine whether or not people try to cheat, people are what's going to determine that, and if you really wanted to cheat in yugioh I can think of a lot of better ways of going about it than fucking RNG manip, especially learning to RNG manip so efficiently that people can't tell.

so basically what you're saying is even if it's fucking blatantly obvious that someone has intentionally manipulated RNG, if they haven't done it in one of the ways specified the rules are shit for not catching them and the mods can't fairly ban them, even if it's stated that intentionally manipulating RNG is disallowed, and the final say is up to the mods, and everyone universally agrees that it's completely obvious that that's what they're doing?

Nice opinion.

I guess we also better ban running the game altogether, because otherwise it's impossible to prove someone hasn't modified their console/disc/emulator to guarantee good fights/drops/etc. like has been done in the past, without either someone admitting it, or that person fucking up in their hack and getting the glitch card, so better to just never play yugioh in the first place since someone might cheat.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's reached that point with the things that have currently been discussed. I'm just saying that should be the goal, because it's going to be impossible to completely ban RNG manip on objective terms

I think that's reasonable. Not only would limiting card dupe-type strategies to just resetting for decks and trading them only to two memory cards as a separate category from actual card duping be completely stupid, but it'd be a waste of time for the Any% category since doing RNG manips would be a faster way to beat the game anyways. I guess based on that alone, it doesn't even matter too much if it's banned from the main Any%, I'll leave that up to everyone else, I don't really care.

But if you held a gun to my head and told me I had to vote, I'd vote for the trading functionality to be banned in the main Any%, yes.

I'm still going to come for that time eventually @Cyberdemon so u better be ready, I already bopped u in the other Any%

I'm strongly against the misc category thing for the purpose of tallying, no matter what the outcome. I care about this more than I could possibly care about anything else. I will actively vote for whichever course of action does NOT see the most commonly run/active/popular category of a game become a misc category, because that's just memeworthy in all honesty. And it's not even a good meme

on that note, I think it's also very important that it be stated that RNG manipulation is not allowable, and if you are considered to have done things with the intent of manipulating the RNG in your favour, the run is invalid, I know we wanted to avoid topics such as intent, but ultimately the choice to allow or disallow a run is up to the mods, so there should be a clear way of banning runs where, none of the actual set in stone rules were broken, but it's obvious to everyone that they manipped.

This way if we can pin it down to a point where it's really difficult to do any form of RNG manip without being really obvious about it; we've effectively prevented a problem from ever arising.

Also, what are other people's views on the whole, grandfathering runs thing?

I think those are all completely fair points, the only thing I'd refute is the AFK thing, but before I did, I'd ask, does the seed advance after the end of the duel? IE. on the card drop screen? Or are walkaway strats in jeopardy there, because I often go afk for extended periods on a card drop screen, one way or the other, but more to the point, I think that especially in the longer runs, life has a tendency to happen when playing yugioh; I don't think it's fair to ban a run in such a long game because they had to go help their dad carry the shopping inside, or whatever.

EDIT: I also think it's pretty important that if we're deciding on rules like this, we need to make sure everyone is completely crystal clear on whether or not the rules are going to apply to old runs. I'm in favour obviously of grandfathering any runs done before rules are set, since people weren't to know, I think I did a 3d duel in my PB just now at one point, probably more than one honestly, so if my PB is b& because of it I'm going to be h*ckin PIST

I've stated several times that I don't really care either way, and I've come to realise that there's a reason for that.

Personally, the only reason I see for the categories not to be split is the fact that no RNG manip is very difficult to define well, but that's a fairly good reason. That being said, there are a lot of reasons for the split to occur, which I also agree with, so essentially I'm saying that my vote goes for the separation of the categories in whichever way we deem best overall, IF a good, agreed on definition can be found. Otherwise, I would rather not be considered as voting either way, because I don't feel like either side of the discussion is correct, basically I think we're all wrong for playing this god-forsaken game in the first place OpieOP

EDIT: I should also say that I am definitely NOT in favour of no manip being a misc category, whatever decision is made. I think that one of the most active, if not the most active category in a game being made misc just doesn't make sense at all.

EDIT 2: Just to reiterate that previous point even further, and this transcends any other choice I've made in voting, I actively choose to vote for whichever side of the argument does NOT see no manips being made a misc category, as I see that as the worst case scenario. So regardless of everything else, if it's stay the same or be separated into a misc category, I choose stay the same.

Well, I guess I'll start things off, I'm not saying that this exactly works, but it's been discussed that RNG manipulation be looked at by means of what is done in order to perform it, so we should maybe ban for instance advancing the frame counter by going back and forth between the Random Sort option, as a starting point, console resets should also be looked at, although I often find myself resetting console in a run to avoid a duel I've started by mistake or something like that, but obviously, if it's banned that can be worked around. While neither of those completely rules out any form of RNG manipulation, they're both great points to start from, and any other objective qualities of any RNG manipulation are something that should definitely be looked into, I would suggest banning the use of 3d duels, but they can be pretty epic and a fun way of finishing off a duel against someone that's been walling you, so I'm not too sure. I'm also not sure how much they're even used in the current RNG manip run.

I should also add that if it is moved to misc, it should probably be renamed from Any% to Any% (Allowing Card Duplication), or something like that, this would also make the separation (if that's what we decide on) of manip from no manip somewhat easier, as manip being allowed would just be called Any%, with no manip being Any% Legacy or whatever is decided on, obviously I'm not trying to start up that discussion here, but I think regardless it would make the boards a lot cleaner, so I'm in favour of it no longer being "Any%", and in favour of it being moved to misc, but if you make me choose between it staying like it is, and being removed completely, I'd rather see it stay as is.

As someone who quite enjoys the Card Duplication category, I must put up some kind of protest, while I can see that it's considered a meme by a lot of people, and understand why, I think it's quite a fun run to do. Would be more than happy to compromise and have it moved to misc, I don't know of anyone who would object to it being moved to misc (besides the people who'd rather see it removed completely of course). Ultimately if you remove it and I feel like running it, I'll run it anyway, but I don't see how it hurts anyone having it as a misc category, so if that's a decision everyone can agree on, I'm more than happy with it.

It isn't, but it's an effort a lot of people would see as unnecessary, and some people would possibly have repurposed the old HDD from their ps4 to something else, I know I plan to whenever I get around to replacing it with an SSD.

Preface: This is my opinion. I have a tendency to phrase things like this in such a way that can come off as offensive towards people who disagree. It's not my intention, I'm just phrasing my opinion and examples and whatever else in the way that comes most naturally to me. If you disagree, that is fine.

Buy ps4. Put SSD in PS4 to speedrun because it is allowed by literally every speedrunning community, due to accessibility, support from sony, and how cheap it is. Buy HDD because Kingdom Hearts community don't want people to have to spend an extra $60 (less than how much I spent on my capture card, and most of the individual games I've speedrun, the controller I use for my ps4 since the original broke, and many other individual items that are REQUIRED to speedrun in the first place) to compete, because the run isn't accessible.

Basically what I'm saying is if you want to speedrun a game and don't have an SSD and are upset that you're at a disadvantage and can't afford one etc., just fucking do the speedrun without one. You should still be able to tell how good your run is, you should still be able to compete with yourself, and self-improve., and eventually maybe you will be able to buy an SSD and go for top times, but you don't NEED to compete with WR to be able to speedrun, just like you don't NEED to arbitrarily ban shit on leaderboards or make a bunch of separate categories for literally everything.

EDIT: I should clarify that in the second paragraph, I'm by no means trying to imply that if every other speedrunning community does it, it is correct; it's moreso that most speedrunners who have a ps4 and/or speedrun ps4 games ALREADY have an SSD in their ps4 outside of this community. As a result of the fact that other communities allow it, so going against the grain could potentially, or no, not potentially, almost definitely will, lose us interest from prospective runners in the future. That said, this argument goes both ways I guess, but as stated above; I don't see any reason that you should just not speedrun because you're at a disadvantage. See if you like the run without spending money, if you do and want to compete, spend money, or if you can't, make a donation drive or something. it's not like SSDs being allowed is going to make HDDs run the game slower than they did already.

Backin up @Cyberdemon531 on this 1

also agree with this, for what that's worth.

I should also mention that I'm not saying this to say that myself, or people like me should be exempt from the video rules, as I said, streaming is fine/easy, I wholeheartedly agree with the decision that's been made, I'm just posting my connection etc. For clarification on the internet situation that a lot of people have to deal with.