As the title suggests, is there any way we can separate Preset and No Preset into two different categories?

I feel like having them together, Preset overshadows the work and patience put into No Preset Records.

There's many issues with doing such a thing and that have been brought up in the past. The issue is that doing such a thing would create something like 65 more categories in the board's current state. (any%- 25, foundry only- 25, co-op- 15) This would be completely absurd, along with the issue of actually separating and creating specific rule differences that we could actually verify, It would mean everyone who didn't run preset file would be required to have a completely maxed talent tree and unlocks, literally any less and you could consider this an "advantage" as it further reduces the pool of options. Already with the rules about player info being shown in a run we have more than 10% of submitted runs rejected due to just not reading rules/showing info, i believe any additional info that MUST be shown would basically ruin any newer player's motivation to enjoy speedrunning, as any run they spent time on before reading the rules would just be void. The point that has been made time and time again is that people cannot beat the preset times with a no preset file, While i agree there's a distinct advantage there have been many examples of the opposite. I agree at the top-end in categories and if both preset and non-preset are to the absolute perfection of optimization, Yes preset will be more advantageous will we see that? i'm not entirely sure we will, in the current state of the game there's an absolutely astronomical amount of luck that goes into both preset and non-preset times to get the theoretical perfect run. Currently the fastest runs (Tao normal preset) are not optimized, there's quite a lot of mistakes in execution, possible better scroll drops (excluding the guaranteed ones), possible better weapons to get, Better/faster ascensions, Not the fastest layouts in each stage As an example in failology's 7:33 run the 1-1 1-3 1-4 2-1 2-3 3-1 layouts are not the fastest. this is really just scratching the surface of optimization and luck required that applies to both categories. There is advantages to having preset file be an allowed strategy too, since it was allowed there was a decent uptick in runs and interest in categories that weren't just Normal or Normal foundry only, it's about 60/40 but more people showed interest in the strategy and enjoyed seeing the game being sort of broken in a way. The people who didn't like the strategy often assumed it to be just cheating or assumed that "Everything" including layouts, weapon drops, bosses etc were also per-determined, and basically considered it to be a free insane time with 0 execution. The point about work and patience put into runs i personally believe is a non-point in my book, while yes on average to get an amazing run or a setup capable of being fast is lucky. There's no scale in which someone could get that "one run", it could be their first run, it could be their 500th run both apply to both preset/no preset, The skill in this game is to realize and execute a run that has that insane luck, or the opposite to be able to salvage a sub-optimial run in some aspects but good in others to still get a good time, if you took someone who plays the game a ton, and someone who One of the big decisions in making the soft separation like the way it is now is that the runs in a gameplay sense are functionally identical, and anyone running or preferring the preset or no preset rules are more than welcome to filter them accordingly. Separating both of the files would mean that top runners who only want the lowest times would effectively have to run effectively the same run/strategy but twice to attain their top times.

Very long response and i'm terrible at making my points properly in text, i personally am more than open to discuss it at length (That goes for literally anyone) and have in the past, and i hear all the time people disliking preset and also that people like it, so i'm incredibly torn on the subject, I pretty-much just want the game to be enjoyable to speedrun for everyone.

TL;DR - Separating and moderating a category change like this would result in a complete bloat of categories, and more hoops for newer players to jump through, Yes preset is an advantage, but not unbeatable, equal effort is required for top times in either Preset/No preset.

Ima be back when this happens my guys full game is getting dominated by presets in the fun categories and they still aint separated, despite more runs than ever.

""MAKING PRESETS SEPARATE IS TOO CONFUSING FOR NEW PLAYERS SO WE GONNA KEEP THE RECORDS TOGETHER SO NEW PLAYERS HAVE... to do that complex shit to even bother speedrunning our game competitively" "

@doloss Not sure if you're misunderstanding this post - But this was before the 1.0 board revamp, i'd suggest reading this if you're unsure of the newer rules. https://www.speedrun.com/gunfire_reborn/news/391 For short, preset is only available to use in Any% as it's a legitimate strategy that's possible within the game, Every other category the strat is banned - Limitation being that when submitting it's still a selectable tag (Mostly so the entire archive board doesn't get nuked by removing it).

Did you send me a message about my FRESH FILE record? It is against the rules due to the omission of the process of creating a new save file. Okay. thank you.

I really feel like this decision should be given consideration again following the wiping and revamping of the boards after 1.0.

Firstly, since Preset is now only available on Any%, the concern over category bloat is not as pressing since only 4 categories can currently use preset. Therefore, separating Preset and No Preset would only create 4 more categories as opposed to 50+. And, just taking a look at the Any% Normal board, there are clearly enough players competing in each category such that there would not be any issue with a lack of competition if the categories were to be split.

Secondly, I disagree with your position on the issue of it being uninviting for new players. First and foremost, I don't know if anyone who hasn't played enough to naturally max out their talent tree is even going to be a competitive runner in the first place, and second of all, I think the process required to download, install, and run the preset file without the game attempting to update is more complicated than just running the game like you would normally, with No Preset.

Thirdly, the idea that Preset doesn't offer a distinct enough advantage to separate from No Preset is absurd on its face. Just taking one glance at the Normal Any% board and you can see that literally ALL of the Preset runs are as good or much better (by nearly TWICE as much!) as the No Preset runs. Arguing that it is a legitimate strategy just because it is present within the game is not at all a convincing argument because (1) it isn't even available normally in the game, you have to modify your files or specifically create a new save file and play in a way to minimize unlocks for it to even be possible, and (2) just because it's an available strategy does not mean it doesn't offer a significant advantage. This is like arguing that within Minecraft speedrunning, Random Seed and Set Seed should be in the same category just because you can input a specific seed to generate the same world every time, when clearly if that was the case, almost all of the Set Seed runs would be faster than the Random Seed runs. Or perhaps since only certain scrolls and weapons are guaranteed this would be more like allowing Random Seed and Filtered Seed (which always spawns you next to a ruined portal with a looting sword) runs on the same board. And clearly the predetermined elements of Preset runs such as certain guaranteed scroll drops offer a much higher chance of getting top times compared to the almost completely random nature of No Preset runs as you are able to enable certain scroll synergies and obtain scrolls that are powerful on their own much more frequently, on top of the scrolls that you obtain through peddlers, red chests, and challenge events. You yourself within the FAQ/Guide about preset files admit that it allows a player using a Preset file "to gain a huge advantage."

Fourthly, to your point about an increased interest in runs since allowing preset: I obviously can tell whether that's the case because I don't have access to the backend of the board, but I can say from personal experience and the experience of my friend Tamedbumble that we have lost our initial interest in speedrunning this game since 1.0 released as soon as Preset runs started being uploaded on the same board as No Preset runs since there is such a miniscule chance that we would be able to beat out the speed of the Preset runs. Splitting these categories would make me much more likely to launch the game and start going for more Any% attempts as I would then be competing against other people who are running the game in the same format as I am.

Lastly, your final point about separating the categories forcing top runners to play slower just to obtain times in different categories pushing them away from running is just demonstrably false now after the post-1.0 board wipe and revamp. There is clearly no absence of runs from you, Mr. Failology, Jack, The Kid, etc. in the Full Game and Foundry Only categories which no longer allow you to use a Preset.

Overall, I just would like to appeal to you and the rest of the mod team to consider splitting Preset and No Preset within Any% since there is no longer as much of a concern over category bloat. It would make the game more enjoyable for me to speedrun since I would actually be able to run No Preset and not get stomped by people running Preset, and I don't see how those people would lose any enjoyment since they mostly seem to be competing amongst themselves anyway, given that they currently have all of the top times in Normal. It would simply be a more enjoyable experience for me, Tamedbumble, and I'm sure many of the other people doing No Preset runs who stopped running since Preset runs started being submitted.

This isn't any full written out response to the subject i just wanted to add context to some points. I'll say this at the top so it's not missed This is just my opinion on the matter and isn't a final say on the boards

The comments about preset not offering a distinct advantage - I can't remember where i said specifically that but it seems like something i've said in the past - i have downplayed the whole idea that you "Cannot compete" without preset in normal, Even just looking at the pre-1.0 boards for Tao normal there's examples of top 10 times overall without preset. Elite and nightmare are a different subject to that, and i agree it would be almost impossible there. A lot of the comments i made here were in the context of the pre-1.0 boards and what people were running at the time. The comment about huge advantage is still not incorrect but i was mainly talking of the initial use-case of the file - That being Elite/nightmare It was only later discovered when Tao released of a strategy i stumbled on and later improved on back and fourth between me and SipEsa, Sip initially coming up with the idea to use the preset initially meant for elite/nightmare but for normal instead. I've agreed that there's a distinct advantage many times. The point about increased interest in runs came from the elite/nightmare categories - Beforehand there were tons of just grossly un-optimized WR's, dead categories or one insanely lucky run that just sat at the top uncontested for sometimes upto 6+months (I don't know the length exactly). The comment about having top runners do two functionally identical runs to compete in both is still true - It's horribly worded by me so you interpreted it wrongly, The point i made was that for example Crown prince Normal, The strategy utilized in both a preset and no preset are functionally identical, the run you're doing is again functionally identical. Functionally being you ideally want a demonlore strategy early on and you want movement scrolls and good layout RNG, in that hypothetical if you set a crazy top time in preset/no preset, you now have to do exactly that same gameplay loop and attempts again to set another time fishing for the same things.

The final thing being that Any% in itself is a flawed category - We as a whole initially assumed that any% would just be dead with the option of 4 stage runs, especially due to the fact we for verification purposes specifically have to make any% runs End their run there and then without the option to compete for full game runs, It was our way of adding a category that its only main focus is lowering times regardless of strategy, whilst also keeping preset files available to be abused. Even initially we referred to it as the "Any% Fuckfest" Number go down brr. Hypothetically if we add a no preset any% it could potentially take away from those WR Full game runs - And functionally from a board standpoint it's just a full game run but you trimmed off the final stage from the recording (Not actually that but just saying it to make the point). Fail's Full game WR is an 8:28 3stage run for example, if he had ended it there to take the any% record, we wouldn't have a full game run of that, Further explaining my point i made above, With this hypothetical change they would have to do an completely identical run just to set a time in any%. I guess my question to you and anyone else advocating for an any% separation is, What's wrong with doing full game runs and why is any% much more appealing. (Reading this it comes off as horrible, i assure you i genuinely want to know the reasoning). The only reasoning i heard from someone running no-preset any% was just something they wanted to do as they learned, before moving onto full game. I'd for sure love to have an proper chat about these things and everyone involved, My discord DM's are open and the official discord #speedrun-discussion is always open for talks about this stuff.

A quick TL;DR - That totally won't get misquoted. This isn't a ruling on the matter, Preset is an advantage - There is potential to compete, just not WR, Past comments were made with quite different contexts and have for sure changed, Runs that are preset/no preset are still the same "gameplay", Any% was built to be a Fuckfest and its only focus on seeing just how low we can get a game completion, i'd love to talk about this stuff - Contact me or the discord speedrun channel.