So starting the timer after the intro cutscene and on gain of control is stupid.

It being stupid wasn't so much a problem until recently, when people found ways to abuse this.

Here's a video by Gael. You can sit through the intro cutscene at no timeloss according to our current timing method and then setup a rampage. This will let you cancel the rampage for infinite MP5 ammo (or whatever rampage you pick, but MP5 is nearest) because in reality, you have already been in game for more than 2 minutes (But the timer wasn't running).

Instead of cop car RNG at the start (which a lot of people hate), you could sit through the intro cutscene for 3 minutes (while the timer isn't running), then make a replay and restart the game. (Timing starts upon the finishing of the first intro cutscene, so the second intro cutscene IS timed because you have already gained control before then). This strat is more consistent.

[21:22] <Gael> making a MP5 replay (+40s) [21:22] <Gael> rampage start "An Old Friend" without any kind of setup (easy +0s) [21:22] <Gael> not getting a cop car and making a replay (-10s maybe 15s) [21:22] <Gael> not having to setup rampage starting the party (-3s) [21:22] <Gael> canceling rampage to get unlimited MP5 ammo then restarting it (will make getting to the malibu in time easy) (-5s for people not able to get to the malibu in time with cop/taxi strat) [21:22] <Gael> not picking up shotgun (10s over taxi strat) [21:22] <Gael> Best case scenario = losing 8s over a getting a taxi and not being able to arrive at the malibu in time [21:23] <Gael> stupid strat is not such a big time lost

3 minutes of waiting before timing start == only 8 seconds lost, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Now we could outright ban this strat, or we prevent future issues and fix the root of this problem. I suggest that form now on, we time our runs the correct way, the way that doesn't bend to the floor for SDA's broken "one size fits all" policy: From the moment the initial loading finishes and the actual game starts.

Q: But what about existing runs A: Existing run times can be converted either manually or by automatic means by giving them the benefit of the doubt about whether they skipped the initial cutscenes and just add 19 seconds on top of them (the time the unskippable part of the cutscene takes).

Q: But now my sub <milestone> run wont be sub <milestone> anymore. A: Who cares, your run is still as good as it was, it just has a different time label printed to its info-page.

Q: Weren't you the one who decided to time the game like we currently do anyway? A: Yes, when I started running this game in 2012 I didn't know better and started timing like this, and I have realized for a LONG time that I was dumb and stupid for doing so. I did not bother with it though because it didn't matter, but now that there's actually ways of abusing it, something needs to happen.

So, in short, I propose we change the timing methods of our run. Runwise nothing will change. We have to sit through the shoveling-shit-cutscene anyway. It will take some time getting used to, but once the switch is made, people won't experience any negative effects; but our way of timing this game will at last make sense and will contain no abusable loopholes.

Discussion goes in this thread.

I think timer should start upon selecting "new game" in the menu (or maybe after the loading screen disappears and the cutscene starts? That would eliminate a tiny bit of loading time differences between HDD and SSD). That's all I really have to say.

As far as timing goes, on one hand, Gael's strat isn't faster, even though it abuses the timing system, on the other hand, something else could come along, So IMO, change it now, avoid problems later. Also, we can call the old runs Any% Classic timing rules Kappa

i think we all know this is a better way to do it, yea.

I think if we start upon the finishing of the loading instead of pressing New Game, we dont have that loading time issue MH mentioned, and that's when ingame time starts anyway.

I have to disagree on the loading screen start, it's much more intuitive and consistent to simply press your split key and enter at the same time. SSD vs HDD differences happen through all of the run, so why nitpick just this one instance?

Mostly because IGT starts upon the finishing of the loading. Also, eventually a loading timer tool will be made and the initial loading will be excluded anyway.

Timing start after initial load.

Now that we're talking about timing changes, when are we finally gonna ditch RTA and exclude loading times? RTA is a left-over from when oasiz was the only runner and he couldn't be bothered to use very precise timing methods because he didn't need 'em. It's already been determined that loading times vary by quite a lot between runners, despite them always seeming practically instant.

Loading times aren't the only factor that affects run times. Replay buy warps are a lot easier on SSD/Ramdisk as well. Before I started running VC off a ramdisk, PW buy warp took me about 10 seconds, now I just spam Shift + Tab and it works pretty much instantly. This is a bit of a sensitive issue. Some runners may not have computer with enough RAM to run a ramdisk, some runners may have a computer with an SSD only, so it's not as cut and dry to say only SSD/Ramdisk or only HDD is allowed.

¤spends 2 hours editing out loads¤

Wasn't there an external program being worked on or was that just an idea?

I agree with the notion to exclude loading times, however as of current days there is no reliable and accurate way of doing so.

I have never experienced any benefit on buywarping on my pc with SSD vs my shitty laptop that barely runs the game. The only reason a remote buy takes me 10 seconds on my laptop and only 1 second on my SSD-pc is because on my laptop that's how long the loading takes when I press F3, which naturally would also be excluded once we find a good way of timing loads.

However, exclusion or inclusion of loadtimes is a separate matter here that I do not wish to discuss right now, at least not in this thread. Please keep this about timing the intro cutscene.

I talked to Lighnat0r and Pac and they're able to mass convert all the existing times and add 19 seconds (Someone needs to verify this is actually how long the unskippable intro cutscene takes). While some runs may have sat through the intro cutscene for longer, they didnt abuse it and I don't feel it's fair to penalize these runs for doing something that wasn't the case back when they were done. If people have a problem with this, then the solution is simple: You go through all the runs and retime them manually. Please also refrain from submitting any runs using the new timing before the mass converting is done.

I have yet to see anyone object (with valid reasons) against the new timing, with only one small issue about whether we start on NEW GAME or on the end of the initial loadingscreen. I will check back here in 24 hours, if noone objects by then I think it's save to say that we can start timing this properly.

I have no problem at all with a new timing method, just as long as we're clear on when exactly to start the timer. Seems we have 3 options, start on new game, start on end of loading screen (just to be clear, timer start when splash screen dissapears?) or start on cutscene skip. 3rd option allows IGT manipulation again, so we'd have done nothing, and from what I see, end of loading screen seems to be most popular.

Starting timer at the start of IGT would make sense to me as well, guess I'll start doing that then

timer start when splash screen dissapears?

Yeah

Not 24 hours, but noone was going to object anyway so the mass converting has been done. From now on, the intro cutscenes are included, starting from the moment the loading ends (splash screen disappearance).

Existing run times have been increased by 19 seconds. This gives the benefit of the doubt yadda yadda I mentioned this earlier in this thread.

If anyone still has objections, feel free to post them.

Now the line "Timing starts when the initial loading finishes and ends when you lose control and the screen begins to fade to black after killing Sonny." has been copied over to all the categories' rules. The latter part of that sentence only applies to Any% as far as I'm aware.

Also does the timing increase apply to Trilogy runs too?

seems like someone fucked up

nothing would change for trilogy runs cause trilogy any% start with GTA3 and I don't think anyone started trilogy 100% with Vice City

[quote]Now the line "Timing starts when the initial loading finishes and ends when you lose control and the screen begins to fade to black after killing Sonny." has been copied over to all the categories' rules. The latter part of that sentence only applies to Any% as far as I'm aware.

Also does the timing increase apply to Trilogy runs too?[/quote]

Majority of people uses SRL timing so I don't think anything will change. Plus people would have to sit through loading anyways and the timer still runs.

Don't see how it matters for trilogy runs. Second game and all that, after all.