I've been hearing about a controversial strat: you can set your save file to read-only and then overflow the donation machine on every segment of a multi-character run. It won't record the fact that you overflowed, so on each new run it automatically starts at 999 again.

Some people have been using this in runs, and some others don't think it should be allowed.

If there's a consensus that it should not be allowed, then I think the cleanest solution is to ban donation machine overflow in multi-character runs. (like, why would you even want to do it if it's removing your ability to bomb for coins on subsequent runs) We could also just say "you're not allowed to do this read-only save file trick", since that's a weird external modification to game data that isn't meant to be modified that way.

If there's a consensus that it should be allowed, then everyone can start using this strat I guess.

Post in this thread with your thoughts, please.

Just as an addendum, I believe making the file read-only also removes your ability to use S&Q strats, if people are still doing that, since it can't write to the file. People have also been doing this to avoid having to refill the machine every so often, which I've heard has been a thing for a while.

As far as the specific overflow mechanic goes, I think it comes with some downsides, as in getting Ipecac + Toaster and being limited to only getting 99 coins once in that character run is a factor that has to be considered in doing so. I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking of that it would limit.

Anyway, my vote (if it even gets counted) says both read-only files and donation machine overflow are valid.

I agree with Silly.

Though, I'd like to hear arguments against it.

I don't think read only should be allowed. You're not running the vanilla game if you do this. How is this even a question, honestly? It's modding the game. Since when is that fair game in any speedrun ever? It doesn't matter too much on its own, sure, but that shouldn't be an argument. You can do any run you'd ever want within 3x999 cents savefiles that are easy to prepare and don't require any kind of "cheating" during the run.

Combining this with the donation overflow however is insanely strong and thus boring. I would actually stop running the game if stuff like this becomes standard. Free money instantaneously for 1 cent investment, no downside like bombing the donation machine currently has (costing time to do so). Also, if the file is read only, why would you only be able to do it once per run? shouldn't the machine be back to 999 if you reenter the shop or any other shop? But even if not, that doesn't weaken cac toaster runs considering it takes like a minute normally to get all the money, and 84 cents are completely enough on most seeds if you play somewhat smartly.

I also feel similar about the coop baby glitches, these are single player runs after all. but that's a different topic (that should also be discussed at some point though)

I second pib on this one, I think that overflow should be banned. It removes decision making for clearing rooms for consumables, what you should buy from the shops given limited resources and so on. Why wouldn't you buy everything from the shops with basically no cost of consumables or time. I don't think it is healthy for the meta to allow overflow but I think the community needs to come to an agreement about this.

Pibonacci, if that's the case, your run with MissingHUD should also be invalidated (I'm singling you out, I just happened to watch your run as it was the latest submitted in 7char, this would go for anyone who has it installed), as you're using a code injection DLL which is also NOT part of the game. While my opinion of MissingHUD is that it dumbs down the game (you can use the D8 and know instantly how good it was, if it was bad you can roll again until you're happy), I don't think it should invalidate a run.

I also think there are 2 discussions brought up here. Allowing read-only files (which has been a thing since Rebirth so you don't have to refill the donation machines) and using the overflow strat, which itself is "part of the game". I think we need to have the discussion on both of these issues on their own.

Starting to ban things that are actually mechanics of the game becomes a slippery slope that I don't think we should start on personally. I also have plenty of rules I'd like to implement that would probably destroy runs if we are going to start banning things that are in the game. We'll need to wait for more people to weigh in on this however before any kind of things are set.

Well silly item trackers shouldn't be allowed because then you instantly know what your items got rerolled into or you know immediately what eden's blessing is. Think that doesn't happen often enough? When is the last time you saw d8 being used? Anyway this is entirely off topic at this point, this thread is for overflow. I'm pretty sure that these kind of issues are not as influential as overflow is anyway.

Sure, ban missinghud, but then also ban the not ingame itemtracker EVERYONE uses. These are an advantage on EVERY single eden run, keeping track of transformations that would otherwise require additional mental resources, etc. This is far more impactful, and yet you are fine with it but address missinghud? And please ban everyone in racing modding their game files outside of what you can do in the option menus, removing filters, etc. Or do you want to seem completely hypocritical?

I think we are capable of talking about both of them. One of them is a mechanic of the game (overflow) while the other is not a mechanic of the game (read-only). As Pibo said, you can create 3 save files as well, so if even if I don't set the file to read only, you can easily jump to the next file while using the overflow. There was another point brought up about replacing the save file mid-run to deal with the donation machine.

I don't think it matters when or if I saw it used. The fact that it exists should be a thing that has to be taken into consideration when we're talking about banning something. Your opinion on this has been noted and we'll continue to wait for more views on the topic as there are only 3 actual responses so far.

Pibo, I am NOT for banning MissingHUD is my point. I am not for banning ANY of this personally. I think if we use an Item Tracker (for the above reasons) you should be able to use other things. If the game is supposed to be run vanilla, then there would be no external things helping. The issue there becomes the item tracker is 100% not enforceable as it runs external to the game and reads an external file that someone doesn't have to put on their stream.

You could allow it, BUT only on the first character of a run, OR it could only be used once.

silly pears it DOES NOT remove save and quit strats i JUST save and quitted to get super greed on a read only file

pibo your wrong missing hud DOES GIVE INFO YOU CANT TRACK YOUR SELF thats far different.

missing hud will tell you D7 stats making it a decent pick mid game and exp treatment thats far different then a program keeping notes for you it does not take any info you can not see your self, the tracker also can be in game(although limited to the last 8 items)

also yeah item tracker happens to be unenforceable that's the issue there

oh with the refilling yeah that should be banned your editing a file. straight up

Okay, so the main issue here is the read-only file being used, right? I don't think banning the in-game mechanic of donation machine overflow makes sense honestly, but banning the use of a read-only file that sets the machine to 999 for every run without exiting the game makes sense since that seems counter-intuitive to the games intended mechanics.

Also, to clarify, am I right in believing that it is against the rules to exit the actual game client mid run? In other words, having to reload a new save file in the middle of a run is not allowed. I personally use two separate save files so I don't have to do that although I can see arguments against swapping files mid-run as well. The reason I ask if this is already against the rules is because the read-only file thing would basically just be replicating this but with less time investment.

And in case I was long-winded because I know I tend to do that sometimes, my short answer is I don't think it makes sense to have the read-only file be allowed and that I'm against banning overflow.

I am not a speedrunner but I am a avid watcher of many Twitch speedrunners. I know all the meta, items,effects,and what not.

I really disagree with being able to use overflow and co-op baby in speedruns. How can a speedrunner feel good about themselves then they cheat out a devil deal they can't take with out co-op baby, or how do they feel when they over-flow every game. This use to be a vanilla only speedrun (minus the save-file so you don't have to farm coins/unlock everyting, but that was justified by the community).

I as a viewer think it is down right wrong to use co-op baby and overflow(in every single character you use)

I agree with Pib. 100% on Overflow. (edit my bad) You are not running the vanilla game like stated you should. I get that there is the MissingHUD and I have no real problem with it. It doesn't block the runner's screen when running.

My vote is against Co-op baby "strats" and overflowing.

This type of thing has come up before in the Isaac speedrunning community and people were nicer back then. They didn't do co-op baby in runs. I haven't seen someone do it in Lemon Party or various other speedrunning races. So why start now? Because you know it is wrong and you don't just up and do it in a more public race setting, you have to sit in your more personal stream and do it.

I really hate it. It disgusts me.

Chris, problem is, that coop babies are allowed since rebirth in speedruns, they are not allowed only in racing. Also coop babies are just in game mechanic therafore there is no reason to disallow them in speedruns.

I personally don't have anything against read only, but if you are gonna ban this, next step is to ban donation machine replacing mid run since it achieves the same thing as read only, also ban quitting a game mid run, and so on and so forth. My problem is that if we start introducing that kind of rules, we will and up banning a lot of stuff eg missing hud (since it's dll injector, and it modifies game). Also savefile that we all use is technically modified savefile, it's not legit, it's hacked by sillypears :P

My vote is: keep it simple, if you think it's bad and shady, then don't use it, but I think it shouldn't be banned.

Final thoughts: get fucked barry, suck my ass, love, Krak

Xelnas, I never said missinghud doesn't give you additional informations, I said so does the itemtracker, so you can't ban one and not the other without being hypocritical. I was making a logical arguement, either both A and B or neither. Can you not put words into my mouth? Read what I said, not what you want to read.

Pibo, that's not true, the difference is that item tracker reads text file and doesn't interact with game at all, so you could technically achieve the same thing just by observing a file, while missing hud reads memory like cheat engine and modify game by showing it on game display. There is more of a case to not allow it than item tracker, and it's not hipocritical at all to allow one and disallow other. But I don't think it should be banned lol

Brain, barry mentioned being able to achieve the same thing without read only but taking only a few seconds more. Maybe he can explain it more. I agree with hyph that the simplest solution is to ban the overflow.

Sure Kraken, technically being able to read a log file while running is absolutely the same thing as having immediate on screen information about what item Eden or Eden's Blessing starts with or a D100 rolls your build into or or or before the information even appears on screen.

There are now way too many things going on and some people are replying with hostility it seems. At this point the only replies should be whether allowing the overflow mechanic (regardless of save file status) to be allowed or not since things are going way off topic.

If someone wants to begin a vote on other things to ban, please make a new thread with 1 specific thing in it. Also if you don't plan on ever actually running the game, I don't think you should be replying in these threads (eg. stream viewers). This is why my vote doesn't matter on these things and I am only here to do moderation and/or bring points to the table for people to discuss.

Thanks.

Pibo, I am not implying that it's the same thing, I am comparing it in sense what would be the case for disallowing one, but not another. And reasoning is not "it helps with gameplay" because tracker is probably more useful.

EDIT: sorry sillypears, I posted it before I saw your post.