With vsync on and draw distance maxed I get pretty low FPS. I've never measured it, but I'd guess it's 30 or less.

Hmm, Nvidia drivers have a built-in frame rate limiter (in addition to vsync) that is accessible through a third-party program, (Inspector, for example,) giving several choices between 30fps and 60fps. It must be set before you start the game, meaning it doesn't modify the environment or the game while it's running. Perhaps this wouldn't be considered a "tool" in the TAS sense but would allow one to choose a frame rate that is simultaneously playable and safe to complete the mission?

I've never tested it in this situation, though. One caveat: I have to reconfigure the limit fairly often as it seems to reset itself after reboots and driver updates.

I agree with PW: A -- fix it with in-game settings.

I would be fine with the two categories remaining as they are now, of course. I would also be fine with things staying as they are but for adding a variable to classic% for vehicle density with two options: "33%" and "adjustable" (or some other word that means something similar.) Am I mistaken in that this would answer everyone's concerns? (except for Kyle's dislike of variables, of course.)

Feurigerilias, yes, I have tried vehicle density 1, and 100, and lots of values in between, and, as I've stated several times already in this thread, I find 1 boring, (and, not relevant to this thread, 100 very frustrating: gridlock everywhere, haha,) But somewhere between is most fun and interesting and this is how I played casually. Dodging traffic is fun. Being punished for shitty driving is fun. Wandering around an empty Liberty City is boring. As I've said before, Etholon had reasons for choosing 33%, and, as he got here before me, I followed his precedent. Also, just because I'm not streaming gta4 right now doesn't mean that I'm not playing it or that I haven't paid my stream dues. Finally, there was no debate on IRC. S had an idea and offered to implement it on the leaderboard as an example.

Traffic despawning tricks of the other gtas, (swinging the camera around, or using the top-down camera or whatever,) is not comparable to gta4's method. One is a skill that carries penalties for using, requires enhanced map knowledge, and isn't even guaranteed to work. The other is a menu option.

Patrick, thank you for your research.

Thanks, S for the suggestion.

As S said, I like the variables idea. The benefit is that you get to pick what rules you like to run with. Then, when comparing times, you filter the leaderboard for those rules and your time is only compared to others who have run with those exact rules. That seems like a problem solved to me.

With regards to the variables themselves, there are several different tricks that could be considered warps: taxis, of course, but also autosaves, video editor, death, and probably a bunch more that I can't think of or haven't been invented yet. Should we have different variables that separately cover some or all of these, or maybe just "taxi warps" and "other warps"? Just "warps" seems a little broad as almost nobody likes taxi warps, but the rest seem like more of a personal choice.

Finally, to speak to S' question about the category name. I'd be fine if we jettisoned the "classic%" name, moved everything to "any%", and let the variables organize exactly which sort of "any%" the records are for. I think it would go a long way toward increasing gta4's legitmacy.

I care what the speedrunning community thinks about gta4's legitimacy because that's how and why communities exist. A speedrunner without a speedrunning community is just a Let's Player with an on-screen clock.

I've never played SA or V, but traffic in gta4 isn't RNG, it's an algorithm that triggers under specific conditions, but might or might not occur when those conditions are met. For example, peds test your driving skill by, for example, placing their bumper slightly in your path, or by stepping off the curb at an inopportune moment. Avoid these small tests successfully and you are rewarded with emptier roads, less aggressive AI for a time, and smoother drives. Fail to avoid a few in a row and you will be punished with, for example, an unavoidable t-bone crash. This is fun because accurate and observant driving is rewarded and aggressive or bad driving is punished. Reduce TD to 1 and you've removed this mechanic almost entirely, resulting in an easier and, in my opinion, more boring game. (Rockstar, in their infinite wisdom, put the setting for this gameplay mechanic under "Graphics", but that's another discussion.)

While I agree with Molotok's opinion that changing well-established rules by fiat is... less than ideal, I must disagree with the suggestion for a poll. Many people who have never publicly run the game or, indeed, even played it for more than 10 minutes, happily offer whatever opinion about it that springs to mind to anyone who will listen. A consensus in this thread would be the best way to determine what should be done, I think.

Your argument, as I read it, is that classic% is too restrictive and you can get a lower time if the restrictions are removed and more strategies are allowed. To which I reply: wonderful! simply remove all the restrictions, call it any%, and get the lowest time you possibly can with my full blessing. But if you want to take the name classic% and apply it to a rule set that is not classic%, then I must object. The name is not yours, the rule set is not yours. Etholon created it, I spent a year of my life popularizing it, (as did you, and to great effect, for which you are to be commended,) but it belongs to the community.

Let's table the warp discussion for another thread.

You've already said that there's no time benefit to be had by lowering vehicle density but haven't answered my assertion that it makes the game more difficult and therefore more fun and interesting. So, at the cost of a fun rule, what have you gained?

Classic% has very little legitimacy among the wider speedrunning community, (already dismissive of gta4,) who assert any% as the one true category. Discarding, two years on, one-third of the rules of classic% is sure to decrease that legitimacy to zero.

If one were to, for example, reduce the amount of collected stars required to complete a Super Mario 64 70-star run, haven't you, by altering the category's rules, created a new category? I believe that by reducing the requirements to complete a classic% run, you've created a new category. All that's left is to think of a new name for the new category. May I suggest "any%"?

Etholon decided on Vehicle Density at 33% to bring PC GTA4 in line with console settings. But are other reasons to leave it at 33%: it makes the game more difficult, (even if only slightly,) and therefore more interesting to play/run; also, it means less mucking about in the menus, two of the reasons classic% exists. If anything, there should be more rules, (no warps of any kind: not train, phone, or mission restarts, etc.,) to futher distinguish it from any%. The any% category should be the anything-goes category and classic% should continue to be left for those who like some nostalgia with their speedruns.