This is an open question: should we set separate categories for PS4/PS5 since the load times are significantly reduced and there is no way that the PS4 times can compete with a PS5?

I don't feel strongly either way. I don't know the usual process or thinking that goes into this kind of thing for other games, but since we're a small community we can chat through it.

I guess the argument is that because it is such a small community it wouldn't make a ton of sense to split it. At the same time, there isn't really a level playing field simply based on system hardware. Thoughts?

I was wondering this myself! Separate categories probably don't make sense, but there's gotta be a way to make it more even. Here are the two ideas I had that should even out the playing field.

Idea 1: Cut all non-course time Rules:

• Time starts the first frame of a hole that a player character can be moved
• Time is paused the first frame the "Offic" marker pops up after completing each hole
• Time is resumed the first frame of the next hole that a player character can be moved
• The run is finished once the "Offic" marker pops up after completing the final hole of the run
• For "All Courses" runs, time is paused once the "Offic" marker pops up after completing the final hole of a course, and is resumed the first frame the player character can be moved in the first hole of the next course Pros: It would be an exact representation of the time it takes a player to go from start to finish of each hole. It would also bypass chip-in replays, which punish chip-in shots below par by forcing a replay (this may or may not be desirable though). Cons: This would take a lot of time since every single hole would have to be frame-by-frame verified. It might not even be necessary, as there doesn't seem to be any differences in time between the PS4 and PS5 between holes 1-9 and 10-18. Plus it would bypass chip-in replays, which may or may not be what we want to do given the goal is to finish as fast as possible.

Idea 2: Cut only major loading spots Rules:

• Time starts the first frame of the first hole of a course that a player character can be moved
• Time is paused the first frame the "Offic" marker pops up after completing hole 9
• Time is resumed the first frame of hole 10 that a player character can be moved
• The run is finished once the "Offic" marker pops up after completing the final hole of the run
• For "All Courses" runs, time is paused once the "Offic" marker pops up after completing the final hole of a course, and is resumed the first frame the player character can be moved in the first hole of the next course Pros: It would be far quicker to verify times this way versus idea 1 while still removing all load time differences between PS4 and PS5. Far easier to follow as a runner during a run since you don't have to constantly stop and restart timers over and over. Cons: Chip-in replays remain punishing outside of holes 9 and 18 (since time is stopped the first frame the "Offic" marker pops up for those holes). This might not be a bad thing, but it is something to keep in mind.

Whether you're on PS4 or PS5, there won't be /huge/ differences in times for individual courses it seems (about 6 or so seconds faster overall on PS5). On the flip side, there's a huge amount of load times saved for the "All Courses" runs when playing on PS5 versus PS4.

No matter what, the time differences between PS4 and PS5 are eliminated if we decide to follow either of my suggestions for new ways to count run times.

I'm personally a fan of idea 2 just because that by itself eliminates the actual unfair load time differences between PS4 and PS5. Idea 1 seems overkill as it would take far longer to verify times, plus it would modify times beyond just console differences which doesn't really jive with what a speedrun is supposed to be in my opinion.

Regardless, I'm happy to help re-time runs no matter how we decide to move forward!

Thanks for all the input and info. I was curious to see the difference in real time and the two game time options, especially because they had such marked difference in time despite our scores being nearly identical. For example, the Idea 2 timing of Eagle City shows a difference of 45 seconds, even though you only shot one stroke better than I did. Granted, shots taken does not necessarily equal time taken, so I looked for a different way to assess it. So, I went to hole 3 of Eagle City and checked the first shot on your first video and my own run (note: I have not looked into your new runs yet, but that's what I'm doing after this).

Your timer from the moment you control the character to the beginning of your second set-up is 1:10 to 1:18 - eight seconds. My timer goes from 0:54 to 1:04 - ten seconds. I assure you that I am mashing just as fast as I can (as are you, I'm assuming), which should take me directly to my second shot regardless of where it lands. I checked the second shot as well: Yours 1:18 to 1:25 (7); mine 1:04 to 1:12 (8). I thought perhaps it was backswing, but given the standard timing of the cursor tick up and back that came out to the same time. The putt is the same at 5 seconds for each of us (1:25 to 1:30 and 1:12 to 1:17, respectively). That's only a three-second difference for the hole, but it continues on other holes. It's the same on the fourth hole (your first shot to second set-up - 1:33 to 1:41; my first shot to second set-up - 1:19 to 1:29). Fifth hole first shot to second set-up - you, 1:54 to 2:02; me,1:43 to 1:52. Second shots seem to have a similarly consistent one or two second difference (mostly on par 4 and 5 holes). The sixth hole is more of the same, so I assume it continued though I admit I did not check the entire run.

Just from the first shot on holes 3 through 5 show a difference of five seconds. I went back and tried without moving at the tee box before the shot (which I do on most holes) and found it did not change the time. And even if my running around the tee box added time, it should not amount to two full seconds per hole. Also, the additional second or two on each second shot increases a PS4 time, without the benefit/detriment of moving around the tee box.

Long story short, it seems that PS5 load times affect the between-shot loading as well as between hole loading, particularly on first and second shots on par 4s and 5s. It's not significant on any given single hole, but it accumulates over time. Assuming a uniform two second advantage in each hole (which, as I mentioned, I did not test fully), that amounts to a 36 second difference without any disparity in shots. Like I said before, I'm happy to keep them in the same category as it feels like overkill to create an entire new section/category for PS5 runs. But from what I can tell, there is no way for a PS4 runner to get close to a PS5 run, assuming similar scores and button mashing between swings.

I realize now that I didn't even answer the question about timing. I guess I got a little carried away on the viability of a PS4 vs PS5 loading times...

I would be fine with timing things with your second method as that is a bit easier to manage, and it's a bit more precise if we want to get a little closer to parity. I'll leave this question open for the next week or so before moving ahead with the changes.

Edit: You are absolutely 100% correct! I just coincidentally had the run of my life on Eagle City G.C. while playing on the PS4 Slim (which should be the worst possible hardware that can play Everybody's Golf) for the test and it still came out 30 seconds worse than my imperfect PS5 run. That's no good.

I think with a small community it's important to make sure it's as level a playing field as possible, so perhaps we only consider PS4 runs official? Maybe at a future date we consider changing that once PS5s are more common, but for now it just seems rather classist of me to flaunt WR times assisted by better hardware.

(As a note, the video I made still cuts out load times between holes 9-10. Given there are different types of PS4s, it's still probably best in my opinion that we do that to keep runs as close to parity as possible.)

I don't think it needs to be outlawed or anything. I can create separate categories for PS5 if we think it's worth it. That's not a big deal to me. I've seen plenty of other games with categories featuring a single entry based on difference in hardware.

I can see that you enjoy playing and do it well; and it's nice knowing other people do that with a game I love. And I'd like to acknowledge that rather than omit it. On that note, I don't mind not having the top time because of hardware. I understand that is a reality of the situation. But if it bothers you (or others), then I'm happy to create separate PS5 categories for the various courses/full runs.

I don't like having records by default, it just feels wrong. So I think I'll just play using my PS4 for now so it's more of an equal competition (plus I just like the idea of competing with others to raise all of our skills together).

That said, if we allow PS5 runs, then separate categories works for me! If we do that, I'll re-submit my PS5 runs to the new category at that time.

So I went through all of the runs on the leaderboards and re-timed them all based on the revised rules I drafted here: https://www.speedrun.com/everybodys_golf/thread/1e3e6/. Hopefully this makes the runs as consistent with each other as possible.

~~ EAGLE CITY FULL COURSE

SparkyFish Real Time – 6:34.3667 Game Time – 6:22.2667

willisthepenguin Real Time – 6:45.1333 Game Time – 6:34.3333

ItzElite Real Time – 6:50.6000 Game Time – 6:39.5000

CR4ZYeyes ILLEGAL RUN - NO VIDEO PROOF

ThePickleman4 Real Time – 7:59.8333 Game Time – 7:48.7333

CAMfidence Real Time – 8:23.7167 Game Time – 8:15.3333

Dzuh Real Time – 8:36.5333 Game Time – 8:25.8333

DeanoThelasTofus Real Time – 9:26.0333 Game Time – 9:13.8333

Noraaborialis Real Time – 9:38.3000 Game Time – 9:25.9667

~~ ALPINA FOREST FULL COURSE

willisthepenguin Real Time – 6:46.9667 Game Time – 6:35.7667

ItzElite Real Time – 7:09.7000 Game Time – 6:52.8667

Charizard517 POTENTIALLY ILLEGAL RUN – “Unoff” marker pops up instead of “Offic” marker

CR4ZYeyes ILLEGAL RUN - NO VIDEO PROOF

DeanoThelasTofus Real Time – 9:17.3000 Game Time – 9:05.2333

~~ KANALOA BEACH FULL COURSE

willisthepenguin Real Time – 7:07.0000 Game Time – 6:53.5667

ItzElite Real Time – 7:20.8000 Game Time – 7:08.3667

Charizard517 POTENTIALLY ILLEGAL RUN – “Unoff” marker pops up instead of “Offic” marker

CR4ZYeyes ILLEGAL RUN - NO VIDEO PROOF

DeanoThelasTofus Real Time – 9:20.2000 Game Time – 9:06.4333

~~ VORTEX VALLEY FULL COURSE

willisthepenguin Real Time – 7:11.8667 Game Time – 6:57.9333

ItzElite Real Time – 7:14.6667 Game Time – 6:59.8667

CR4ZYeyes ILLEGAL RUN - NO VIDEO PROOF

~~ IMPERIAL GARDEN FULL COURSE

willisthepenguin Real Time – 7:28.9000 Game Time – 7:11.5667

ItzElite Real Time – 7:36.7667 Game Time – 7:19.8333

Novelgravy Real Time – 7:42.1000 Game Time – 7:27.9667

Charizard517 POTENTIALLY ILLEGAL RUN – “Unoff” marker pops up instead of “Offic” marker

~~ ALL COURSES

willisthepenguin Real Time – 43:23.9000 Game Time – 35:46.2000

ItzElite Real Time – 44:55.8000 Game Time – 38:14.1333

~~ ALL COURSES MIRRORED

willisthepenguin Real Time – 44:18.6667 Game Time – 36:12.4667

ItzElite Real Time – 44:28.6000 Game Time – 37:10.0333

Thanks for the re-times.

I suppose I should have been more cognizant of the lack of VOD for CR4ZYeyes runs, so thank you for pointing that out too.

As for Charizard517 runs, I looked at the video and it seems that it was done as a Multiplayer Stroke Play run as opposed to Solo Stroke Play. The 'rules' are visible at the top (0:18) stating that it is Alpina Forest, 18H stroke play, Regular Tee, Normal Cup, Clear (Eve), Standard Wind (the quality of the video isn't great, so it's hard for me to make out those last four, but this is my best guess for what they say). I went back and played a round with Multiplayer (with me as the only participant), and it did not seem to change the timing of things significantly. But from what I can tell, that is the only reason it is considered 'Unofficial.' But I might be missing something; so if you notice, please let me know.

All that being said, we can set the rules to be whatever we want. And if we decide 'Offic' (Solo Stroke Play with the 'normal' cup or smaller) is required, then we can stipulate that in the rules. I can go back and change all the times for the submissions, and I'll respond in the other thread for updating the rules about this.

And I will add separate categories for PS5 so you can do that. And I'll get around to that whenever I get one (your runs look so nice compared to my PS4!).

Of course, happy to help! I have professional video editing software through my job, so I figured it would be easiest and most precise for me to retime everything. But it did cause me some disappointment: I was excited thinking I barely beat your Alpina Forest record earlier today only to discover you short-changed yourself on your times and were actually 3 seconds ahead of me instead of 1 second behind, haha. Maybe next time!

As far as the suggested updates to the rules: I think the "Offic" tag makes it immediately clear when verifying that everything is as it should be with the settings, so I think it'd be good to impose as a rule from hereon out. It'll also make sure there aren't any load time differences between solo stroke play and multiplayer stroke play - there don't seem to be differences that I could see upon a cursory glance through runs (maybe a couple seconds but results were inconclusive), but might as well eliminate that variable just in case.

That said, I don't think Charizard517's runs themselves are actually different in play to the rest of the runs other than that. That's why I was hesitant to actually label them as illegal runs. Charizard517's runs did follow the rules that were in place when the runs were submitted, and the runs don't seem to be appreciably different from the "Offic" runs everybody else submitted.

So I was thinking that if we did make the rules updated, we could still count Charizard517's runs as verified with a note saying that it's grandfathered in since older rules didn't stipulate it had to be "Offic" when it was submitted and the runs are otherwise the same in setup as the rest of the runs. Thoughts?

Yeah, I don't have any video editing software - you get what you see straight from the PS4. So, I'm mostly just looking at the time that appears in VLC/Youtube and making that my time. Good to know I could be more precise about it.

I like your idea of grandfathering in Charizard517's runs but also stipulating that to avoid any difference in the future. That way 'Offic' appears and we know it's the real deal as a shorthand. I'll make those changes a bit later tonight.

Ok, that took longer than I had planned and it's almost 1am. So, there are categories for each individual course as well as all courses (mirrored and not) that includes both a PS4 and PS5 category. So feel free to submit those PS5 videos.

I'll get to editing the times on past submissions tomorrow. Happy golfing!

It should be done; I just finished updating all the settings and times with notes about real time in the run comments. Now I just have a backlog of runs to verify (though mostly Sparky taking his PS5 runs off that he can resubmit).