I've added a language variable to the leaderboards. By default, all versions are shown together. You can now use the filter to only show times for each version.

In a recent discussion with someone, I was debating allowing the German version on the leaderboards. Their argument against it being that since it modifies things aside from the script, most notably the wine cellar and Lincoln to make them easier, it shouldn't be allowed.

My stance on this was that any official release should be allowed. The obvious compromise would have been to split the leaderboard but I decided against it considering how small the community is. My reasoning being that no one would bother with the original English version anyway when it's more risky and less consistent if all you get in return is the prestige. I simply assumed there wouldn't be any such purists.

I neglected to discuss this publicly before and just allowed German runs alongside English, so I'd like to ask everyone, should the leaderboards be split? Why? Why not?

I went ahead and changed the rules for NMG to allow stealing the cube, skipping vampires quest and the gate master stuff.

Sure wish I had seen this section of the manual a bit earlier... Can't help but feel like I'm making this mess worse and worse.

Originally I wanted to allow stealing the cube since the books saying you killed him doesn't hold much weight for me. Then someone was claiming something along the lines of stealing not supposed to work outside shops (not an exact quote). They noted how the message "Official" appears when successfully stealing an item, leading to me incorrectly believe that stealing items was an unintended, buggy side effect of the stealing skill and banning it. I'd be ok with allowing it again.

For what it's worth, someone I know asked Tim Lang, one of the developers about stealing the cube and he said it's ok, but take that with a mouthful of salt.

And while we're at it, could I get everyone's opinion on the vampires quest? Since the category is now called NMG, it might be reasonable to allow it. Is there a stronger argument than "you're supposed to kill the vampires" against allowing it?

Edit: to clarify, by allow it I meant skipping the quest by just entering and leaving the wine cellar, of course.

I apologize for misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to argue it was a glitch I just saying many people would. Ah I see, my bad.

I don't feel too strongly about using a gate master near monsters one way or the other but teleporting while invisible seems a bit much for "glitchless". I just never thought about it that way before.

And like you said, details like these are likely to show up again so it seems like the most sensible option is to just rename the categories. I'll go ahead and make the change now, though that doesn't mean the discussion is over necessarily.

Attacking monsters around a corner is just a strategy, nothing buggy or glitchy there. It's like claiming that camping in a shooter is cheating. Lame maybe, but often effective.

There are already other dubious things allowed. Care to expand on this? Is there something else in addition to using gate masters "improperly"?

The cube thing is a little different though. I believe that stealing isn't supposed to work at all outside shops. The book saying you killed Tolberti doesn't actually matter then.

Anyway, right now I see two options. Either ban taking advantage of gate masters or rename the category to no major glitches and allow it.

Personally I'd be in favor of allowing it since it would most certainly invalidate all existing runs. Not exactly the strongest argument but when also considering how rushed MM7 was it's not hard to imagine they meant it to be GM level but didn't update the text. Of course the same could be said for the opposite which makes this a tricky decision.

I'd like to hear other people's opinion on this.

Come on now, you can't call a first-party localized release "modded". People should be able to do runs on any official release. And like namefaker already said, it doesn't make sense to fragment the already tiny community.

For what it's worth, I personally don't like it either, but it is a very common thing in speedrunning. Often it's just text length (like japanese vs english) but I'm sure there are numerous examples of notable gameplay differences between regions.

I actually added the category accidentally. Someone asked me to set up all awards for 8 but I did it for 7 instead, then figured it might as well stay.

That said, the rules are definitely up for discussion. The simplest would be to just do what you can on either light or dark side. Alternatively you could save before choosing a side and then do both sides in one sitting.

Not to fan the flames but you did just jump to conclusions and called him out on something he had no part in. If anything, you should be angry with me for being so wishy washy with the rules.

Edit: there used to be a comment from Kuningas before this one.

Not sure why you chose to bring up Fox now. It was solely my decision to change the rules, though I did consult him (and others).

If you read my earlier post you already know why I changed my mind on this. Again, I'm terribly sorry for this mess but it's what I truly believe is right.

If you're asking if using blaster while hasted is ok then yes, that's allowed.

Personally I never understood why people think it's a glitch. Broken as hell, sure, but that's how it should be. It's a laser gun enhanced by magic, of course the result will be outrageous.

No duping. I don't see how you'd benefit from that anyway.

I believe you when you say you didn't take advantage of glitches, but the rules are the rules because otherwise people start finding ways to bend them. It's easier for me to just say "no glitches, full stop", no ambiguity. As for my previous comment on the matter, I didn't consider this aspect, my bad.

At the risk of sounding like an elitist snob, I'd say your run is more like a fast longplay than a speedrun. I haven't seen it recently (or from start to finish completely for that matter) so it's hard to point out why exactly I wouldn't call this a speedrun.

For what it's worth. my first "run" ever was 2 hours long MM6 bad ending (record was around 10 minutes at the time), but I would never call that a speedrun and no one else has seen that video. The next day I did it again but in half the time, then in half again after a few more attempts. That might not be the best comparison, but my point is that with almost no effort I cut my time down to a fraction. All I'm trying to get at is that you could have improved your final time a little before submitting.

Sorry if I came across a little mean before, but the bar has been set quite high.

If I remember right you did demonstrate a glitch so no. I don't see why you'd care either way. According to the site rules I wouldn't even need to accept your run since no (real) effort was made to play as fast as possible.

Recently, someone made a run of MM6 and asked for a new category, bad ending NMG. However, they used an exploit where you destroy the reactor using bows enchanted with elemental damage which bypasses all resistances. In my and others opinion, that's both a glitch and not minor, so I rejected the request.

That made me reflect on the decision I made for this game. Since the tricks are somewhat similar in magnitude, to keep things consistent I had to either allow the new run under dubious rules, or change the rules for this game. I opted for the latter.

Months later, after much arguing and deliberation, I've changed my stance on these issues (stealing cube and vampire quest). I've updated the category rules for any% glitchless to ban said exploits and moved the existing runs to any% for now. Not sure what to exactly do with them. Terribly sorry for this mess...

The leader spawns in the southwest corner of the eastern large room. We set a beacon in that corner, teleport out and recall. All monsters will be back at their spawn points.

• Give statuettes to someone other than the character casting TK.
• Attack with the other two characters to make them inactive.
• Cast TK on the pedestal. The turn will pass on to the person holding the statuettes, putting it on pedestal.