United KingdomOk, I think we need a new poll. I am thinking of the following options:-
- Leave the leader boards as they are (6-Pak allowed but must be flagged as such)
- Create new Categories for 6-Pak to separate runs
- Ban 6-Pak
For what it's worth, I think 6-Pak should remain on the leader boards. There are a lot of categories already and it could get really crowded by doubling what we already have. 6-Pak obviously gives you an advantage but it makes speed running the game more fun for me because the RNG is not a part of the game I enjoy. The new screen boundaries are only in effect on the thief camps so it's again only really assisting with the RNG related part of the game. Also the benefits to the runner are only going to be noticeable for people gunning for top spots on the board. In terms of accessibility it's easy for emulator users to get the ROM and for anyone playing original hardware like myself, the Mega Games 6 / 6-Pak carts are easier and cheaper to buy than an original cart. That's all just my opinion though.
Finally, I'm a bit worried about how to fairly identify 6-Pak submissions. I don't have a fool proof way of identifying which version is being played, so other than asking runners to come forwards I would only feel comfortable moving my own 6-Pak runs from the current leader boards if it came to it. And then for new submissions I would have to rely on honesty. I don't think there is a perfect solution but I will go with whatever the community decides.
Hi everyone,
I just found a message in my inbox from BOP95 about a difference they discovered on the 6-Pak cartridge. The message has been sitting in my inbox for 2 months without me realizing so shame on me!
I have done some testing to verify and added screenshots here https://imgur.com/a/QicucFx
The left/right screen boundary is extended slightly on the 6-Pak cartridge on all thief camps. This makes it easier to hit a thief when they are off screen which can be very useful for pretty much every thief camp for all characters on beginner/arcade.
This is in addition to the RNG benefits InTheMug discovered where all RNG is fixed for the first 30 seconds of each stage.
I thought I would ask for thoughts from everyone here to see if this is a big enough difference to re-evaluate our stance on 6-Pak cartridge. Which is currently allowed in all categories as long as it is flagged in the run submission so it can be seen in the leader boards.
It has now been 2 weeks since I posted the above polls and I have updated the leader boards with the changes that won the vote. This doesn't mean this is final, we can always re-discuss and change the leader boards again if anyone feels it is necessary.
- Emulator game rules added (under Game Rules tab of rules - Links to allowed emulators added to resources section)
- New option to choose game version (normal or 6 Pak) added to leader board
These rules will be enforced for new submissions, old submissions that have already been verified will stay as they are.
Thanks to everyone who participated in the voting.
Just wanted to add that I got a new copy of mega games 6 today and it works in my genesis. It has the rng glitch the same as when I tested with an emulator. So I guess it's not region locked, not sure why my other copy didn't work on my genesis. Both my copies work on my megadrive. Anyway, confirmed that the glitch is present with original hardware.
Also thanks to InTheMug for noticing something was different with the rng on 6-Pak. I would never have thought to test the 6-Pak without him telling me. This was his discovery really so sorry for not crediting him originally.
I have been doing some research into the RNG in Golden Axe and found that it is based on a timer that resets at the start of each level. If the timer is on the same value, you get the same RNG patterns every time. The timer increases on every frame of the game (60fps) so it is impossible to take advantage of it.
However, I have found that both the 6-Pak and Mega Games 6 versions of Golden Axe have a glitch with this timer. For the first 30 seconds of each stage, the timer is ignored and the RNG always has the same pattern. This is very useful for levels where you can reach the thieves before 30 seconds are up, such as stage 6 and stage 7. The thieves will always use the same pattern, and on stage 7 this is a fast pattern where the thief on the left runs along the top of the screen.
I have tested on all the revisions of Golden Axe I could find and only these two games had the glitch. Both the games are also region locked so 6-Pak can only be played on NTSC-U Genesis (US console), and Mega Games 6 can only be played on PAL Megadrive (EU console). The EU consoles run the game slower at only 50fps so they are not useful for speed running. This means that 6-Pak seems to be the best version of the game to use. I have created a video to try to explain my findings here .
The physical cartridge seems to be relatively common and cheap so I don't think it is any more difficult to obtain than a normal Golden Axe cartridge. The ROM files are just as easy to find as the regular game too. However, anyone playing the game on other platforms will be at a disadvantage, such as Steam/Wii/Xbox/Playstation, as there is no way to play 6-Pak on those platforms.
I think we should update the leader board to give visibility of which submissions are using 6-Pak. But I don't want to make any changes without asking everyone in this community their opinion, so I have created a poll here https://www.strawpoll.me/20361555 .
I will leave the poll open for a couple of weeks and close it on 30th June 2020.
I would also like to propose that we update the submission rules to make cheating more difficult. At the moment the rules are very lax and it would be possible for someone to use various tricks with an emulator to fake a good time. I think the rules on Sonic for Megadrive are a good starting point so I think we should copy those (https://www.speedrun.com/s1). These rules would limit emulator use to 2 known emulators where it is possible to show that no cheats are being used in the video. For other platforms it would be required to show a game reset and/or show the system menu for the console being used.
Again, I don't want to make changes without asking here first. I am mindful of making the rules more strict as new runners could be put off, particularly if they don't read the rules before recording their first run and get their submission rejected.
I have made a second poll here https://www.strawpoll.me/20361596 . I will leave it open for 2 weeks also and close it on 30th June 2020 .
Please comment with your feedback, I don't want to rush into anything or do anything that is not accepted by the community.
I got bored and made a table of health values for all the enemies in arcade mode. Posting it here in case anyone finds it useful.
(With formatting)https://hackmd.io/RXGnpTdSQFOtWgHQr9zNmQ
I agree with Shimegabriel, I would request a new game but keep it in the Golden Axe series.
Sorry for the slow reply. I think the Amiga version is probably best having it's own game on speedrun.com. The Sega CD port is almost identical to the Genesis/Megadrive version which (I think) is the reason it is on the leaderboards here. It was added before I became a moderator. The Amiga version looks like it is closer to the Arcade version, based on the movement/attacks and it is missing the last 2 stages present on the megadrive/genesis.
GG on the run, love the music on the Amiga version.
This sounds like fun! I wasn't able to follow the link though, is it correct? I searched for golden axe tournaments on the site and only found some that had already finished.
Wow just saw this in time. Good look, I can't wait!
To add onto the previous comments, The MS Dos version is not an identical port of the genesis/megadrive game so I would say it is not fair to play it in a race (it would probably be a disadvantage to play on dos). There are plenty of options for playing the genesis/megadrive version, the Wii version is particularly good. A general point on megadrive, if anyone is planning to play on original hardware the European models run the game at a slower refresh rate making the game slower overall (this is also true for most megadrive games). Finally, as someone who has played the steam version a lot, I ultimately abandoned it as it runs very poorly and can lag on older PCs. I would highly recommend an emulator over the steam game.
A TAS maker ThunderAxe31 has recently been able to make the below damage table for Tyris' attacks. I thought it would be useful to share it. It was created by watching the RAM addresses in Bizhawk emulator, and the address values are below too. Hopefully this will be useful for someone looking for new strategies as you can leave the RAM watch open and see the current health values of each enemy on screen.
From: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20436
Damage of Tyris Flare's moves 16 huge dropping stab 12 reverse swing 6 jump swing 4 flying kick 4 frontal stab (only against beasts) 4 standing kick (only against beasts or during combos) 4 throw 2 most combo attacks
Useful RAM addresses (BizHawk .wch format) SystemID GEN 00D164 b s 1 68K RAM enemy 1 health 00D1E4 b s 1 68K RAM enemy 2 health 00D264 b s 1 68K RAM enemy 3 health
It's happening December 2018 in Japan http://spiralchariots.com/goldenaxe
In case anyone missed it you can watch the VODs here:
Golden Axe - Streets of Rage 2 -
Probably left this a bit late. But in a matter of hours 2 Golden Axe runners, InTheMug and Anthopants will be running Golden Axe and Streets of Rage 2 at SGDQ.
If anyone wasn't already aware, go check the twitch stream and and cheer them along!
https://gamesdonequick.com/schedule
Best of luck to you both!
Yes you beat the game, and this doesn't affect the end time. This has happened to me a couple of times but only on the steam version. I think it can probably happen on all versions it's just not very common. Certainly made my laugh whenever it does though :)
Almost all enemies will move down when you attempt to "down stab" them. Your options to get around this all require some precise positioning and timing, they are:- -Attack as the enemy enters the screen (some enemies follow the same path every time to enter the screen, and whilst doing so cannot dodge) -Attack when an unmounted animal is on screen, (non-giant) enemies always attempt to mount it and won't dodge whilst doing so -Attack at the bottom of the screen, enemies won't be able to dodge down (but sometimes move up as part of their "surround" AI) -Attack when the enemy is standing up. Enemies all stand up with different speeds so you need to learn each to be able to time this correctly -Attack as the enemy is attacking. You can lure an enemy to charge you if you are far enough away, during this attack they cannot dodge. If timed correctly you can also land a down stab when an enemy is performing a normal swing attack. -Attack from a very specific distance. With a lot of practise, most (but not all) enemies can be down stabbed if you start your jump at the furthest possible distance. This is easiest on skeletons for some reason.
As EightbitSteve suggested, it's worth watching some runs from the leader board to see how these methods are used.
