Also for Daytona USA 1, arcade is both the real arcade and PS3/Xbox360 when submiting, mind you. My examples are good. I don't know why people got so upset and aggitated (on discord at least) because a new player got a World Record in a game on a site that everyone is suposed to go as fast as they can, and that's where the deathless run matters. Just think about it for a sec.
In both of your examples, loading times aren't included in the final time. In that regard, if the gameplay is the same, and the only difference are loads it doesn't matter in that case. In the case of Stuntman, loads are counted towards the final time. If you find someone motivated enough to calculate the loadless times for every, then fair, keep PS2 and PS3 on the same boards. However as long as the timing rule is real time it's unfair for PS2 runners to make them compete against a record that's unreachable for them. I'll provide examples that, this time, are relevant: Gran Turismo 1 and 2. Despite both being only released on PS1, the PS2 retrocompatibility adds loading times differences, so they split the boards. Same thing has been done on Ridge Racer Type 4, with a lot more runs to manage this time. Could add more but you get the idea. I don't even understand how this is a debate. Each leaderboard should leave equal chances to any runner to be able to get the record if they're good enough. A leaderboard split wouldn't be the end of the world, so many communities did that for many different cases.
I think you missunderstood my suggestion about loadless times. I'm not against it. I'm in favor of it. And I was suggesting it for Stuntman, in case you didn't undertand what I said due to english not been my first language. There was no need for your lenghty explanation.
Oh, and I own a PS2. If we go the loadless time route, I can beat the game again on it, no problem.
I tought speedrunning was all about going fast. Maybe I missunderstood something...
I understood that you were fully in favor of loadless retiming, I was just pointing out the fact that it is quite a bit of work that has to be done manually, which could be an issue cause this is a small speedrunning community, finding people dedicated enough to retime all the runs could be difficult. But I agree that in the end it's the best solution.
We are currently collecting Data on how to deal with this. From what we can tell a PS3 removes about 4 Minutes worth. But our Data is quite inconclusive cause Loads are pretty inconsistent. PAL Loads seem to be similar but never the same. NTSC Loads are compleatly diffrent to Pal loads. (at least from the one NTSC Example we have. WOuld love more) Unfortunatly the Loads are quite Janky on this game and unfortunatly we dont know how to make a Load Remover for this. We are a very small community with a very nieche game. If anyone has any pointers on how to get that. Let me know please.
I have a couple of consoles and also a Launch PS3 to run the game on to see diffrences. Both in actually playing the game and load times. But I dont have that much time to dedicate to it atm.
@mirdo You basically said what I had already mentioned on Discord: the loading times vary greatly due to many factors, whether it's the condition of the disk, the condition of the laser, the game version (PAL/NTSC), the console model (Slim/FAT/PS3), etc... Imagine having to create a separate category for each of these cases just because the PS3 is faster? You get the idea. But for me, what you already did (noting my run as PS3) is already enough if you ask me. For the rest of things, that's what the filters are for. Just take other leaderboards as an example. I wish you good luck.
Ok so. Did some testing. Game is NOT Beatable on Launch PS3 PAL. Just on NTSC. Those console are extremly rare and will die out. So Im not sure how to proceed with this. Because with a 4 Minute Load Advantage and very limited avability it seems quite the Advantage. I think we might put it to a vote or so. But my Idea currently is seperating it on 3 Boards: PS2, PS3 and HDD/SSD which apperently saves even more time on loads. OR we find away to get rid of Loads and update the Scoreboard to that.
@mirdo Sorry to ask, but what is the hard part of getting rid of loads and update the leaderboard to reflect that? I honestly don't know if it's a super difficult thing to do. I myself can do that with my own run just by using a timer and in a precise way just running and pausing the timer everytime the "CD spinning at the top" screen appears while watching each run and subtracting that from the total time of the run, mirdo. Is that so difficult to do? I honestly don't know, so I ask.
And I'm fine if removing the loads are not possible and you'll have to resort to the second solution you've mentioned. You are a very nice guy and never pointed your finger to my face like some people, so whatever you decide to do, I'm fine with it. I just tought that the PS3 notation on the leaderboard were already sufficient enough though. And I honestly think removing the loadings is the most fair approach.
I'm for splitting into 3 boards: PS2, PS3 and HDD/SSD. Simply because specificly PS3 hardware gives a big time bonus when it comes to load times compared to PS2 and (as just found) is only playable on specific and rarely functioning NTSC hardware.
Over the last few days I've analysed many Stuntman runs and found that the PS3 has consistenty better load times on ALL levels on Stuntman. The PS2 is only rarely able to even get close in load times and was at no point faster than the PS3. The PS3 runs with WORST load times in total have 4 minutes less load time on a speedrun than the BEST load time PS2 speedrun with ive analysed.
There are differences in between PS2 runs, but the PS2 runner with the lowest load times has been able to save around 1 minute in total compared to the average load time of other PS2 players. The PS3 runs sumitted so far are at least 5 minutes faster than the PS2 runs on average. As far as I see, a PS2 in perfect condition is unable to beat a PS3 and effectively splits the board in 2. You can do something about getting a clean disc and getting a PS2 with a better DVD drive to optimise load times, but in my opinion: Because the difference in load times between PS2 and PS3 is far greater than the difference between PS2's (when it comes tot total load time), it means Stuntman on the NTSC PS3 is effectively in its own league, just like using a HDD/SSD is in this game.
Automatic load removers are as far as I know for emulators (because the software needs to read memory) which is completely impossible in this situation since we run on real hardware. Going painstakingly through the video frame by frame is the only direct available solution but takes ALOT of time for each run. Video Analyzers are available but it might be difficult to find someone to make a program that does the analyzing for us.
You're gonna have to include separate category for PAL and NTSC, because there are loading differences between those two aswell.
This is such a mess lol. It was all fine and ok when there were only fat and slim ps2 consoles in the fight of many different revisions. As soon as a "PS3 PS2" enters the ring, everybody freaks out. It's not like there weren't loading differences before, cause there was. It's right there in the leaderboard. People with better gear and people with worse gear.
Whatever mirdo decides, I'm fine with it.
Yes removing Load Times is possible. But that would require that to be done Manually as far as I know. Which obviously is possible but a lot of Work. So not very feasable. While recording your run you could just pause the timer. But thats also annoying. And Im not sure if there is a tool for this. We are gonna collect more data on the Diffrence between Ps2 Consoles. But they seem to be diffrent but fairly equal. We are talking like. a minute in loads which sounds like a lot. But in this game is just something to be expected? ITs a tough call to make definitly. We will need to collect more Information. I will make a vote or discussion thread on how to proceed once I can formulate which options we have.
Pausing the timer manually during the run is not only annoying it's also very inaccurate lol
I know there is a language barrier here, but this is borderline stupid.
I never said to pausing the timer during THE ACTUAL RUN (WHILE YOURE PLAYING). I said AFTER you recorded your run, you would just rewatch the run and PAUSE and UNPAUSE the timer everytime the Spinning CD screen would show up to see how much time were spent on the loadings, and you would subtract that from the total time you recorded in the first place after you watch the full run.
If you guys can't do something so simple with just 9 videos on game that has almost nobody playing, than I guess you should go all in for the category splitting solution instead of this endless debate over someting so simple and logic.
And based on the ammount of likes the stupid comment got from many people including the moderator, I think my english is not good enough to post anything here all of a sudden.
Good news is that the previous world record holder was very happy for me and even posted a message to me on his channel. He didn't made any fuss. He simply acknowleged the thing and congratulated me and that warms my heart, instead of making such a drama as you guys are doing here and on discord (the last time I was there).
So I refrain on posting anything here anymore due to this. Enjoy your drama and your community. I'm out of here.
It was Mirdo that suggested as an option on pausing during the runm but also said "But thats also annoying". Where did anyone say that you said or suggested that?! I think you may need to read before you react.
big things happening in the stuntman community I see
