@Zackery_Dempsey I mean by rules the way the game works by using the glitch :

• you can't do the super jumps in normal runs

• as you discovered, it seems like spike jumps are way harder to execute, like if they weren't hard enough

• all the timings are way easier to do, as you simply need to run to the right without carring about blocks and 'ennemies' positions. ( most of the time ofc)

• Most of the current strats simply become osbolete as the glitch completely breaks them

The major point I'm trying to point out is that the glitch works differently from a player to another ( as you may have noticed it seems like you can't jump as high as us while the glitch is active). That's what I partically find unfair as all players have different impacts on their runs, making it almost impossible to beat the record if their own glitch works differently.

I will add that ​the rules ( on the SP.com page) for the categories specifically says the runs have to be done on the latest release, so it wouldn't make sense to change it saying that rule is no longer valid.

It would be nice if we had some sort of precedent to reference, but I can't think of any examples of a game that 1) has a glitch that dramatically alters the game's physics, 2) has an IL leaderboard, 3) is only faster with the glitch on some ILs but not others, and 4) has variegated glitch effectiveness between devices. Bonus points if the glitch can't be conveniently turned off. I was thinking of comparing to Melee and Elden Ring, but their glitches are always faster. The closest example I can think of would be Betsrighter and crouch-fly in Portal 2, with crouch-fly maybe being the best analogy to blue glitch.

I'll wait for approval first, but I want to go ahead and implement the filter in the meantime. It'll give everyone a chance to try it out and give me a way to track down all relevant runs later if I need to.

I'm not entirely sure what you're expecting from us.

What I'm saying is the blue glitch is simply unfair for those who the glitch works differently

With the latest Ectoplasm's World 5 run, I noticed I couldn't jump as high as he does. As you said the game needs more competitive players in speedrun, but what about those who already are, like me ?

Plus it seems like Ectoplasm found a way to clip easily through 5-7 platforms, but I'm waiting for his answer to confirm that

If you remember when you and I were running World 3 with tide times, a single mistake can ruin the run, but everything was due to skill. With this glitch, we add a random variable on it that you can't control as it depends of the device. Same for 5-7, because you didn't find any explanation or consistent way to replicate the glitch, so it's almost due to random.

Please answer to what I'm saying, because they aren't any games like ABP and trying to find a game similar to it is useless. We don't need any comparisons to other games, rules are made to make things fair but with this glitch, full world runs become clearly unfair.

PS : I don't really see the interest of filter, as I've explained, it's only editable by the user itself, so it doesn't affect the leaderboard, where all the runs with different rules are still on the same leaderboard

Kindly.

Figured out the hardware discrepancy: it's lag. Not a solution, just some more information.

⚠️FLASHING LIGHTS WARNING⚠️

That's good to know, but I'd like you answer things I just said, as for now except saying you don't like looking 2 leaderboards instead of one, I don't really understand why the category should be an issue.

Plus as you just proved it here, it is even more unfair now we know the lag depends on the device you're playing on.

sure it may be inconsistent

sure it may be device-dependent

sure it may give or take an indeterminant amount of time from speedruns

sure it may be patched out (even if LQS really hasnt been active with updates recently, theyve been working on making entire games instead)

however this is not anything new when it comes to glitched category speedruns

new bugs replace old bugs with each update, thats how this goes, and people can always go to a previous version

some tricks are only possible on certain devices (ie. Will You Snail level transition glitch)

some glitches are questionable on whether they help, but when thats the case people dont use it, they just use other glitches. where a "blue bug" category would fail, a "glitched" category thrives

some things are inconsistent, but speeedrunners can either gamble for the odds or disregard it. theres a reason why consistency is important in RTA settings

so why cant there be a glitched/NMG category split?

The fact that it's lag dependent makes me think that we should either:

A) restrict the blue glitch to a separate category (one which would also feature everything hardware dependent that we may discover in the future)

or

B) just ban it

I personally think option A is better because I find the glitch fun and interesting.

nvm idk anymore since we already have 4 categories and splitting it into more categories would result in EIGHT CATEGORIES if we're counting story/speedrun, normal/perfectionist and that

Wait, nevermind, not 8, I don't even know anymore.

Just to clarify ( even if it was already said on the discord) it will only be 5 categories in total.

oh btw on the topic of the discord, the old one is completely unmoderated (but it's still linked here) and someone made another one

Off topic, but still interesting

I want to do more testing on this later, but I think I've demonstrated that there's still more to learn and it's too early to draw any conclusions about how fair the glitch is.

For those not aware, this was how my attempts at this went before:

If you managed to explain us how you changed the way the glitch works for you now, why not, but as of now it is unfair, and apparently I'm not the only one thinking that.

On the contrary, you demonstrated we don't know anything about it, and if by any way we manage to change equally the way the glitch works, it could be good. But afaik you seem to be the only one here to be opposed to that choice, and I wouldn't like to wait 8 months to have any conclusion on it.

The fair thing to do now I think would be a vote, and the winning side applies what it wants to do, because right now I've not seen any solution from you but waiting. Maybe you think it is too early, but you never explained any of your arguments.

And, also, what do you do about the players that wouldn't like to use the glitch ? Just so I know.

Kindly.

As I mentioned in the video description, all I did was turn on my phone's battery saver mode.

I don't agree with the notion that we should split the categories based on a lack of understanding of a glitch.

I'd like to point out that retro was the first to suggest waiting. My suggestion, as of my last post, is to investigate this further in an attempt to make the glitch as fair as possible. Assuming my proven method isn't sufficient, I have several ideas to help with that. To reiterate, I don't think we should, nor have I heard of any other community, split the categories on the grounds of "I don't get it."

Regarding a vote, I'd only take it seriously if it was kept to the community, which, respectfully, has only really had three participants in this forum, one of whom deferred to the other two.

From the site rules: "Site staff will consider involvement of community members with the game when evaluating consensus. A 51-49 vote may not be a clear consensus, and we do not want to change the leaderboard every time community opinion shifts slightly, or someone new runs the game for another vote."

Players who don't like the glitch don't have to use it.

Okay, then :

• I personally always have my phone on saver mode, and I checked with many different configurations and it doesn't seem to change anything ( to prove what I'm saying, I'll make a video right after that post). And even if you "only" changed to saver mode, what tells you it will work similarly for everyone ?

• The reason we would like to split the category is not only because of a lack of understanding, but many reasons I'll talk after.

• you're right, Retro first suggested to wait, however after a lot of discussions on the Discord server, most of the runners seem to agree with the idea to split, even Retro iirc ( but maybe I'm wrong). I will add, without being rude to him, except 1 run, he didn't run the game much, so yes, waiting is a good idea, but as said, I wouldn't like to wait 8 months to find a consistent and fair way to replicate the glitch.

So yeah, go ahead and investigate, it can still be good, but 1) I don't know exactly what you want to investigate, 2) I'm not sure I could personally help, but who knows.

• About the community here, no, there are not only 3 people talking ; there are 3 people talking here on that thread. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of people talked about the blue glitch on the Discord server, that is the main Discord used to talk about ABP speedrun. If you don't wanna join it it's fine, but don't assume nobody talks about it.

• about the vote and the slights changes, so far, the blue glitch is one of the greatest if not the greatest and useful( and destructive) glitch we found out, but again, what makes you think we won't find another glitch even more game-breaking ? What if another glitch ( let's be extreme) makes us finish all worlds in 1 second, would you find it fun to play ? I won't. Will you let everyone still compete on the same leaderboard just because it's the fastesr strat ?

What I'm trying to explain here is it's not bad to want to know the best possible time, but is it fair if everyone can't do it, just because of the hardware descrepancy ( or any other reasons) ?.

And even if other games have categories for that, it doesn't change my point, ABP is not "the other games", and threads are meant to talk about new things and wills of the active community, even if small.

• And last but not least, players who don't want to use it :

GGlitch asked you what would be the problem of a new category. As I've explained many times, if things stay like that, players will compete on the same leaderboard with different rules, those I've explained above. And even if glitches are found to be fair ( which I doubt) what do you do about those who don't want to use the glitches ? You let them compete unfairly on the same leaderboard ? I don't get it...

The point why me and others want to split it ( if I'm not wrong) is simply to make things fair, but nothing forbid you to use it, that's totally your right.

Thanks for reading, and I hope you'll understand mine and many others opinions.

Just to be clear I'm not mad, just frustrated to don't be heard.

Kindly, as always.

Edit : here's the video proving the differences between performances, if I don't do it correctly, please let me know

I personally think that another argument for splitting is you literally can't use the blue glitch without leaving a level (which i've never seen someone do in a speedrun but then again I haven't seen that many speedruns)

If there rally is a majority on Discord in favor of splitting, then we'll do that. I don't want to commit to making an account right now so I'll take your word for it. In my defense, though, I specified "in this forum" already, so I didn't make any assumptions about other platforms.

For completeness I'll go ahead and answer your other questions.

Would I find this hypothetical 1 second run fun? Why not? I think the blue glitch is fun and you don't. Why should this other glitch be different?

The reason I was wanting to do more testing was demonstrate that there may not be as much of a hardware discrepancy as you think there is.

Regarding players that don't want to use the glitch: what about players that don't want to wall jump? What about players that don't want to use turbo dash? What about players that don't want to use air stalling? What about players that don't want to use clips? Do we need a new category everytime someone doesn't like a strat that saves time?

Edit: @Petit_Saturne It's not that your not being heard, we just have very different opinions on what we want out of speedrunning. And the method you showed in your video isn't one I'd considered, so thanks for that.

First thanks for your answers, that's cool from you, now lemme nuance your words :

• Knowing the glitches and the way they work is a good thing, and believe it or not I love breaking games, the fact I dislike is just we mix the runs that use them from those who don't, but I don't have any problem with glitches in general. And yes, I find the blue glitch funny x)

• about testing and investigating, sure go ahead ! That's a good thing, I absolutely don't mind that, really.

• About players and glitches : I will slightly reformulate words, and you will see what I mean :

• Blue glitch and clips, are glitches.

• Wall jumps, spike jumps, turbo dash, air stalling, coyote jumps, are in-game techniques.

By saying that, I'm simply explaining you cannot put on the same level, techniques that are intentional by the developpers and do not break the game, and glitches that aren't intentionnal and may break the game.

By practicing the game over and over again, you can master these techniques, optimize them.

Glitches however, can be known, useful in runs indeed, but have slight random odds, and that's why I make the difference between techniques and glitches

If someone really wants to speedrun the game, he will learn the current used techniques to go as fast as possible, like ( for ABP) spike jumps, air stalling, coyote jumps, etc...

However, if that same player learns he doesn't have the right hardware to execute a glitch in runs, I think it could be frustrated because despite all his efforts, he couldn't beat any records because of his hardware.

Techniques can be learned, glitches can also, but has a risk to be device-dependant, and it seems to be the case with these ones, and potentially all the others yet to be discover.

And if, there is a glitchless category, he will still be able to play the game ( in speedrun mode) because his efforts won't be in vain.

Yes, if we make a true glitchless category, both our World 5 runs are obsolete, as we both use clipping in 5-7, and I'll make another run for glitchless category.

And I will go even further, what will be the matter with 2 categories ? Both will have 2 different ways of playing, learning new routes, timing etc... it's like playing in perfectionnist mode, is it faster ? No, but it's interesting ( I think) to see the differences between routes for each gamemode. And, I personally think, it will be a different way of playing, even if small in comparison to normal routes.

Thanks for your reply, and I don't think we have complete opposite opinions and visions for the speedrun, just slight differences.

Once again I don't blame the blue glitch or any other glitches, it's just I'd rather like having separated categories, as explained above.

Thanks for reading.

Here's the screenshots showing people agreed, as I know you have no reason to trust me without any proof.