Wrong, Celestial. Spellstone 3 would need both ESW AND RESW to work and be valid, which is why I say it could be brought up, but I personally won't discuss it, because we would have to also discuss the global restriction of RESW.

Also, there was another thread for categories discussion, why is this one a thing, again?

As much as I'd like to see Spellstone 2 & 3 as misc categories, that'd mean we'd have to discuss it and I don't really have the energy to go through that again, since ESW and RESW are involved (for stone 3)

Thank you, people, but the status quo has been recovered and there's no need to discuss what to do with it now. I invite you to check the leaderboard changes as of today.

Happy speedrunning.

Well, based on people's input and some extra discussions with mods, the leaderboards have been updated, and I invite everyone to check out the changes.

Basically, any% no ESW is now back to any%, ESW is now a misc category and ESW is banned for main categories.

I'm gonna lock this thread now, because the choice has been made and we gave everyone a chance to speak up multiple times. Thanks to everyone who participated here, and special thanks to BvqR for all his useful input.

Thank you, guys, and happy speedrunning.

The difference between RESW and the current ESW is that when you die, you get a save prompt that allows you to keep the current file slot data as the warp happens, whereas the first ESW is only done by voiding out, so current ESW can be ESDW, so they're treated differently.

You can vote for more than one, yeah, except for the 4th one lol, but I put that one there in case people don't want those techniques at all.

The problem with that is that we can't measure IGT prior to Andross fight, so we would have to SQ once reaching Andross but not defeating him, imo that's why an IGT category wouldn't do. We measure IGT on Assault (to put an example within the community) as well because loading times can affect RTA a lot, but RTA is still predominant (IGT might be messed up with Objective skip, this is the reason that's not the predominant one on the leaderboards, but it's still taken into consideration). I'm just saying that the idea of having both RTA + IGT is not that far fetched.

I included it as an option if people wanna make a ruleset that divides ESW and RESW, but more options would be appreciated and taken into consideration as well.

Thank you for your detailed input, Bvq. Greatly appreciated!

[quote]Any%(use already created file) rule is "Timing begins on new file select and ends on final hit on Andross in the same slot." Other slot is other file. "copy" is not "move". This category is same as "Krystal Corruption". [/quote]

I can see your point, RESW copies the entire run data, but ESW copies mostly location, I assume the staff is kept after ESW because the game assumes you would have it at that point, so it's kinda locked to Fox past CloudRunner Fortress or something? I don't know, the game is kinda weird. Maybe, to allow a difference between the two, IGT should also be uploaded to the leaderboards, since RESW uses the IGT from the setup file, so if it took you 10 hours vs another person's IGT would be about 6 hours, we wouldn't be able to measure with that, so for ESW we could modify the leaderboards to upload IGT prior to Andross/Krazoa 5 save warp if enough people agree.

Based on your input, we could have Krystal Corruption AND any%, but the runs are relatively similar, just one is faster because data copy allows to skip more cutscenes, and current any% has more game time, enough variation to separate runs even further. If enough people agree, that is.

So, let's do the following, let's vote on the options I'll write down here (if you have a different one, feel free to post it), with why you refer that(those) option(s), AND THIS IMPORTANT: explain how, based on your input, the ruleset should be explained, and we'll deal with Krystal Corruption as well, whether include it or not. Doing this for the sake of not reopening discussions for a 4th time, this is ridiculous.

Seeing how we still haven't decided cause people post and leave, I am gonna put an actual deadline, much to my dismay, because I really want everyone to voice their opinions now, but given how runs are still being submitted, I don't wanna confuse people in the future with the category being modified/deleted/or whatever we decide, in 24 hours two runs for current any% were uploaded, so the sooner we solve this, the better. Deadline is for the end of this week, however depending how things go (with discussion and runs) I, or any other mod, can stretch it. So, based on everyone's input, here are the options so far:

1.- Move any% to misc, with no changes whatsoever (¤¤¤)

2.- Regardless of any% decision, include IGT so we have a exclusive ruleset against RESW

3.- With exclusive ESW ruleset, allow Krystal Corruption to be back on misc or not (¤)

4.- Ban ESW/RESW completely

5.- Keep any% as a main category, any% no ESW remains as the principal category regardless

6.- Rename any% to "any% ESW" so 'no ESW' gets its neutral name back (¤¤¤)

Of course, one last reminder: this is a discussion so something works for ALL of us, so keep it civil, no personal attacks against any user, and most importantly, ANYONE in the community can voice their opinion, whether they've done a run of the game or not, so nothing of "I've done multiple runs of the real long category, and you just touched a misc one, so your opinion is less valid than mine" or any of that, ok? Please. And once again, happy debating, people. Let's not make this another "100%" debate.

ESW stands for an event stored in a previously set up file, to swap locations in a new made file. You access in the middle of the run the setup file to store the location/event, then go back to the run file, void out/death warp (depends on where you perform it) and you'll be in the same location as the setup file's except with the run file's data. At first this made any% go down from 4:40 hours to 3:30 hours average, then it was exploited to be able to take it down to 40 minutes. During the first scenario, it was only used to merge Walled City 1 and 2, and it was widely accepted, when it was exploited to switch locations while preserving the run data and taken down to less than 40 minutes, that's when things changed. Some communities don't use it (like LoZ community with SS), but there are other communities that do (BK community with FFM on BK and DCW on BT), both communities were taken into consideration when this was discussed, also the SF64 passive progress for 100%. If you wanna know more about ESW, there's a guide posted in SF Adv Guide section, and you can look up the setup file glitches I mentioned in their respective communities' page and guides for more info.

That's basically what is being discussed right here: if the new any% should be moved to misc or banned, or kept as it is. I made this post for anyone who's not updated on the matter but wanna voice their opinion regardless so we can resume the discussion and EVERYONE gets to submit your input so this isn't brought up in a few weeks like it has been done now, which imo shouldn't have.

I don't wanna have to remind everyone constantly to do this, because it was done so before and people still didn't show up, and we're discussing this again because of that, and we should avoid that. So please, let's not have this discussion up forever.

My input on this is not gonna be about leaving things as they are or changing them, although if it's moved to misc, it obviously needs renaming

My input is about the time it took to put this up. When ESW was found and exploited, it wasn't settled in a day or minutes, it took multiple days of discussion in the community, both forums and the discord sever. All opinions and input were taken into consideration in not only allowing this, but also in naming it, with a global SF moderator monitoring things. After it finally being settled, two weeks later someone brings it up again and we discuss it again, and it's people that didn't show up much before, despite we constantly reminding people to do so in order to avoid that.

I guess where I'm trying to get at, is that even if we all come to an agreement here and make a choice, whichever it is, that means that if, in a few weeks, the same people or some other person come with another complaint, we would have to discuss it yet again, and based on this scenario, they would have all the right to, otherwise it might seem like special treatment is given to specific people, and I don't want that.

Sorry if my input is not about the categories themselves, since I don't really mind with what happens at this point, I just want our community to be at peace, since I know this has been bothering people and I've seen stuff that I'd like to not see again, so I just want this to be the last time we have to reopen discussion over and over because an opinion or two, because that gives right to another person to complain in the future and we would have all the right to reopen discussion for them, otherwise it'd be a matter of double standarts or user preference, and we are a community, for god's sake, no one matters more than anyone because of user status/run time, amount of time invested in the game, etc. The SF community is not SF adventures community, is a StarFox community, and even if people wanna join our community, their input is just as valid, and if we want more people join, this is a horrible example.

That is all. Happy debating, everyone.

I feel like I put examples of other games in the main post and detailed explanation of data transfer for nothing. So I'm not gonna say anything else in the matter, I've said enough there and all these past days, and everything falls in deaf ears with the same comeback no matter what new explanation I give.

I'm assuming at this point most people want this out? I honestly don't want this to take that long, is not even necessary to sit here for days and weeks to decide this. I only see two people here ok with this in and one person from the community I used as reference explaining how my example can be used with other file and is still ok for them.

By that logic, Jub, OoT's any% shouldn't be main category or should be a misc one, or not exist at all? lol

Remember the setup file gets transformed in your run file, so you can't finish the run on slot 1, you begin on slot 1, but end it on whichever slot you originally had the setup file in. So basically your solution has any% be beaten from a new file and not break the IGT, no progress/data transfer from setup file. Run needs to be ended with original file's data and progress.

Just pointing that bit out before people get confused. This glitch seems to confuse a lot of people for some reason.

Court is now in session.

Ok guys, as you might have seen on the other thread, I found a glitch [Event Storage Warp] a few days ago that allows us to warp from a Walled City visit to the other (getting the spellstone and getting the krazoa spirit, let's call them Walled City 1 and 2 respectively), here's a video of the glitch in question (pay close attention to the files name, data and IGT) :

Here's how it works: you need two files, one of them is your run file (for discussion purposes, let's expose the speedrun case) and a setup file (this one will be made before the run starts, and it needs to be on the second visit to Walled City). You start your run on your clean file, and the moment you get to Walled City 1, you save, then you'll get to the moonstone area using the early moonstone trick, store the location and simply quit. At this point, you load the setup file and void out in the moon temple using the waterfall jump (this is done in order to avoid overwritting the location previously stored). When Fox respawns, he'll be in the moon stone room, then you save & quit. In the files screen, the setup file becomes the new run file, in the sense that ALL the data from the run file OVERWRITES the setup data completely, that means the setup file no longer exists, so no items, story progress and such remain there, and are replaced with the run file's. Upon loading this file, the location will still be Walled City 1 BUT with elements from Walled City 2, meaning we can use that to do a sequence break, and go to the last part of the game, skipping everything from getting the 3rd spellstone up until getting the 5th Krazoa spirit. Please bear in mind that NO DATA TRANSFER occurs from setup file to run file, the method just serves the purpose of fooling the game into swapping certain elements between the two walled city visits.

Another version of this glitch can be done in the opposite order, resulting in skipping pretty much the entire game, there's a video here:

In this method, your setup file is on walled city 2 after getting and placing the stones with no glitches involved. Your run starts from a clean file and you Save & Quit once Krystal reaches Krazoa Palace. You then load the setup file, get to the moon stone room, store the location and quit. Then you load the run file and void out as Krystal. If done correctly, you'll respawn as Fox in the moon stone room. You leave the area and just proceed to beat the game. This method works differently because, like I said earlier, is done the opposite way, since you void out in the run file, the setup file's data overwrites the run's data completely, so it becomes a copy of the setup file instead of the other way around, and not only that, basically you just transfer game progress whereas in the first method you don't, you just "swap" locations.

The reason this is brought up is to discuss what to label the any% category now. Not too many are ok on the idea of using the second method to define any%, since the run data pretty much dies in the middle of the run, whereas in the first method, the run data stays intact, only locations vary; and like that, others are still iffy on the idea that a setup file with advanced game progress is required to fool the game. Here are the options:

1.- Use the glitch with first method and label it any%, and renaming the old any% into "any% no ESW [Event Storage Warp]" or some other name.

2.- Keep the current any% as it is, and use the glitch with first method for a separate any% category like "any% ESW" or some other name.

3.- Use the second method instead for any% or any% ESW

4.- Use the second method for another miscellaneous category, like "Krystal Corruption" or some other name.

5.- Just avoid using this glitch entirely and preserve the status quo.

So let's discuss this now. Hopefully, it won't take 3 or more years to come to an agreement.

A last comment: if you need comparisons from other communities/games, there's the BK community that plays on a previously setup file to transfer moves to the new run file, this is done in every category, but prior to the run however. Banjo Tooie has a Delayed Cutscene warp, which lets you choose an event in the game menu (previously unlocked of course) to warp to the last boss and beat the game, this became the new any% but since it made the run a bit boring, old any% was kept under another name (any% no DCW). In Skyward Sword, you can transfer data from a beaten file to a new one, granting you all items needed to beat the game, but since it grants you pretty much everything from a previously beaten file, it was called glitched any%, so is not the main category.

I hope I made everything clear.

Warp glitch done from a setup file.

This uses two files, one in walled city 2 (the premade setup file) and the other in walled city 1 (your actual file)

You use the moon stone early in the walled city 1 file to get the stone and then quit, what that does is store the event/location

After that you load the walled 2 file, you void out in the moon stone temple (with the rock jump to get there without messing the storage)

The game will replace the walled 2 file data with the walled 1 data, keeping the location prior to the void out. Save and quit, and when loading the new walled 1 file, it will be in walled city 2.

Is this viable for any%? New category? Or banned? Let's discuss

There's a new update that unlocks a new level. Does that render all runs invalid, or the current leaderboards moves to a new category of sorts?

What happens now? =S

That has been done already, yet "fuell cells" are collectibles, or bafomdads, or 100% counter or whatever other arbitrary thing are still being considered despite we coming back to the same conclusion all over again, and it all loops in a seemingly endless cycle lol

It just kinda bothers me that we can't reach a proper 100% definition because of stupid technicisms. Or that some other people just disagree with it cause "ew no 100%" counter.

I mean, come on, 100% is no longer glitchless any%, why do we have to keep running on circles to come up with a definition? I find it a bit unfair too that up to this day, neither Usiku's run or mine weren't even considered cause "no 100% definition" so ok fine, we sit and discuss, no one agrees.

Jesus christ.

Log time of inactivity, and shameless bump here, but I still don't agree with the fuel cell being deemed as "collectible". That's the only thing I have an issue with so far

Even tho certain side quests grant you fuel cells as a prize, we still gotta create and separate some labels here. Fuel cells are not collectibles, they are "perishables". Here's a little example: in Banjo- Kazooie speedruns, the mumbo tokens are deemed as perishables, and therefore, they're not part of the 100% definition criteria (an issue with the duplicated token in different locations being one reason), and unlike the fuel cells, there's a very specific amount of them throughout the different maps. The mumbo tokens don't show in the progress screen like the honeycombs (or like the cheato pages in Banjo-Tooie), something that's shared here as well, the fuel cells are shown nowhere in the items/status screen.

Remember we want to optimize the runs, not make them cumbersome just for the sake of being overly arbitrary with a definition. I mean, if you end up saying that criteria is not meant to make the category any more arbitrary than it should, then if it were up to me, if you needed to end the run with a count of xx amounts of fuel cells, and it'd be much faster to grind for scarabs and buy the remaining amount of fuel cells I need to reach that amount, I would, just to give an example.

We want a category very different from any% as well as any% glitchless, but we don't want it to be extremely arbitrary, and make it way more annoying to run in the process, we want something that would be jsut as fun to run as any%

Something to keep in mind: I think the BK community has another category for 100% which includes mumbo tokens and stop n' swop items as well, but making different categories in SFAdv for 100% with very little differences from each other doesn't sound very appealing, imo

That's my humble opinion.

Nice find. We still need both stones tho, and if we could place them on walled 2 without opening the underground entrance, we could save warp after that and save us a bunch of time methinks