Hello, I'm Maxylobes and I am making this thread to encourage people to join me in running this game. To those of you who enjoy it as much as I do, this run is actually pretty interesting.
There are a number of ways to go about running it and I have plenty of research to do before I can make any official routes or back-up routes. My run can easily be improved to Sub-6:00:00 as it is and I haven't quite put in enough work to know which battles to choose in all situations amongst various Army starting land(s), which battles are shortest/longest for specific characters, or even how to fight certain Leaders optimally. Much work is left to be done and I will revisit this every month at least, but I cannot do it alone considering the length of this run at the moment. I don't consider this a super long speedrun, but its long enough for you to fully prepare your mind and body for the hours you will spend concentrating.
If you have any questions about the run, or simply additional info on the game, feel free to ask me! Either tweet me @maxylobes, or message me on Twitch.
Saw a couple of your runs. Definitely interested in running the series, not just the one game. Primarily playing SB4 at the moment though. Still kinda de-rusting SB1 and DK after not playing it since 2009!
Do have to question why Sengoku BASARA and Devil Kings are grouped as a single entity. SB1 has 4 extra characters to play with (Shimazu Yoshihiro/Zaan, Maeda Toshiie/Lark, Matsu/Bramble, Akechi Mitsuhide/Reaper), you need to use those 4 to unlock Honda Tadakatsu/Iron OX, and the EXP multipliers are different for the 3 difficulties (they're slightly higher in SB). There's also the HD Collection, which has a built in "cheat" that unlocks everyone at Lv19, which effectively grants them all their moves from the start. The JP versions would already be about 2 hours longer. Only really asking since I prefer playing SB over DK.
I do have to note that the HD Collection is likely a bit slower for RTA runs due to saving since the game has to access the HDD rather than a memory card.
Have a little more on my mind, but I think this might be enough for now. I do play the entire series, so...
_zephyr, thank you. You are correct and I have made edits. I would like you to message me via Twitter or Twitch PM. I will ask Sceezy to give me access to moderating the Sengoku Basara series and gladly create a page for SB and SB:HD for you to post all of your work on the games.
Cheers!
Is anyone running Sumeragi? Since Creation mode is short and random, I decided to give Free Mode a go (heavenly difficulty, all 48 stages in succession, no roulette). It's actually a pretty neat "category" to run, if a tad long (virgin run took me 3h 14m). And because it can only be NG+ it's open to all kinds of character/gear optimization. I guess the biggest downside is that one has to do all kinds of grinding before unlocking everything required. Still, neat.
I sorta run SUMERAGI... But I have no way of capturing console output at the moment. Creation mode is pretty much locked to 6 stages, which itself is nice, but getting a bunch of duels is even nicer. And yeah, the grinding. But at least finding the special inscriptions is a lot easier in 4S than in vanilla 4. Nearing 200 hours in the original, and I'm still missing 2 of them.
I'm not sure if character optimization is really a thing. It's almost certainly going to be Kenshin + some other character of choice (probably the ninja for fast air travel) if going for pure speed. Inscription loadout is going to be the interesting bit. I do like the "All Stages" type of run and would probably be one of the ways to do it. Would like some parameters though, to at least encourage running with the slower or less frequently used characters. All of them are interesting in their own ways.
Another interesting bit with 2H onward is co-op. Probably going to be quite rare, but co-op runs could be fun. (Yes, I have a co-op partner, even if he's usually Kanbei).
Kotaro is probably the best for getting to where you want to be overall - I did some rough testing, and his base speed seems to be slightly higher than that of the other "light" character. And then there's his air dash, of course.
Why Kenshin, though? Haven't really used him much - does he one shot everything on Heaven? I've used Magoichi myself, which is probably a whole lot less efficient than it should be, but she's just so fun to destroy everything with, even if getting officers fast enough (i.e. before they activate the Basara art) on Heavenly is literally a hit or miss situation with her.
As for the loadout, gave Kotaro 5 Haste inscriptions + Limit Break, to give a bit of survivability before I get him to level 999. Magioichi had 4x Dasatsu, personal inscription for homing rocket bullets (plus, makes the Kaga festival stage a cake) and a Limit Break - I do wonder if just going full Dasatsu is a better option.
Anyhow, the parameters for the run were to start after selecting the difficulty, and split on character's victory screen upon the mission end. All stages one after another. No roulette, but with modifiers (usually went with Officer Killer, Body of Steel and Full Spirit - you do waste some time menuing, but I feel it pays off in the end). I did want to exclude the 3 Matabe dupes, but it seems pointless with no real categories existing yet.
Well, that turned out somewhat verbose. Apologies. :V
Kenshin doesn't one-shot everything on Heaven, but he may as well combo everything to death. I think the only ones who can possibly do that are Shimazu/Kojuurou/Masamune (with massive charge times), and even then, there are exceptions (Ashikaga changing phases, letting Yukimura getting completely fired up, etc). Kenshin's gimmick and PI can destroy stages pretty fast. There's also the Divine Slash x3 -> Divine Speed combo. In 3U, it puts him as the 4th fastest overall under most circumstances, behind Matsunaga, Sorin, and Kotaro. Don't know if it's changed much for 4/S.
Ice elemental, just needs the first hit to start chaining things to activate God Region. Or counter. Or run in while it's still active. Either way works. But yeah, one of my concerns is really the potential for lack of character diversity. I highly doubt there are going to be runs from characters like Kingo since they're a bit lacking when it comes to taking out the main commander. The tag system also makes a mess of things since you can't really disable it like in 3U. I guess what I'm getting at is letting all characters have a chance in their own little "categories". Who knows, maybe we'll see some really good "joke character" players.
Maybe have sub-categories for with and without modifiers? Some of them can be pretty big game-changers and there are players that simply don't bother with them. I kinda feel the opposite with the Matabei Intrusion stages. Include them and skip the normal versions... but that might be because I like beating up Matabei for making me hunt for those stages. The Shingen and Naotora Dojo stages are other stages I feel a bit "eh..." on. Moreso Naotora's since it's skill based. But at the same time, I do like that it's skill based, which could make or break a run depending on the starting point. Agreed on having no roulette. Way too much RNG, even if it does make stages a bit more fun.
In the meantime, I'll be focusing on the older titles with light 3/U and 4/S practice with a friend until setting up something for console capture and a PS4 for 4S. Some of the stages had serious frame drops in co-op on the PS3...
Ah, thanks for the explanation, that second video illiustrates it nicely. I still plan on sticking with Magoichi regardless (for a while, at least), think there's some potential to her. My main "pro" point about her is that you can keep your distance with officers, as I believe most of them go for Basara Art only if you're close enough. May be wrong about that one, of course.
Damn, that'll be a lot of categories. Felt like it would be more up to the runner - either save time in menus with a risk of clutching during the stage, or waste some time equipping stuff, but get through the level faster and, most of all, safer. Separating makes sense, though.
Speaking for Natotora's Dojo, I rarely ever get to the skill part - beat the first wave of Nadeshikos, defeat Naotora afterwards and, bam, the stage ends. It maybe has something to do with how much bonus time you get in the first wave? I have more problems with the bell hunt on Tsuruhime's ship, damn those things.
I'm mainly a Kojuurou/Kenshin/Matsu player since SB2H. So the switch to Kenshin isn't too bad, but I do favour Kojuurou's style a lot more. I also tend to have Kojuurou in my pocket during normal playthroughs if things get a little rough. Been practising parrying so I don't end up eating a Basara art by mistake. And yeah, I think they attempt to use it once you're in range or sometimes right after recovery.
Well, maybe not outright categories, but rather denoting if the run uses play books or not. I think some games have runs with columns with differentiating details. Maybe things will get a little clearer after playing some more.
I almost always get to the skill test because I don't lower her HP fast enough (don't have any weapons with the Open inscription, never use play books unless for getting points). Beat enough Nadeshiko for a comfortable time limit against Naotora, beat her within that time limit, then it goes straight to the final duel. It's part of the reason why I'm pretty "eh..." for her stage. Some of the slower characters can't kill fast enough even in the first wave, so they're practically forced into the skill tests (it's impossible to force the last duel with 4 seconds!). Another killer is trying to fight Naotora with 2 tigers running around. Not sure there's a reliable way of doing it with Shimazu...
Bell hunting in co-op is awesome~ Although I should make my friend do the platforming for once instead of ringing the bells for me. I think I've played the stage enough to sorta run through it with a rough idea of where all the bells might be.
Pretty cool to see you two trading info. As soon as Sceezy sees my message, I will be given "series mod" and we can sort out all of the separate games and their platforms. I am solid with moderating Devil Kings but I will give _Zephyr mod in Sengoku Basara and SB:HD to work with those titles. I'll need you to set the categories and rules if you have time, and then verify any runs that are submitted from then on out. Good work on the Individual Levels (IL's) for Devil Kings, Zephyr. I haven't been able to watch all of them from start to finish, but you definitely understand the games nature and play it well. Hoping to see full runs soon!
The only advice I can give with running IL's is to be very aggressive, choose your battles wisely, and retry if the map RNG is against you. Border Patrol is nothing to worry about but fighting an extra army due to inactivity on the map after battles is a set-back in most cases. Some of the worst possible scenarios in these runs involve Q-Ball and Zaan not fighting each other or being inactive, having to fight Orwik and Q-Ball in the same run, losing the opportunity to choose quicker battles (some of these faster battles are against Azure Dragon, Muri, Arslan, Khaz, Reaper, & Lark), and simply having certain armies win over others because of how much faster certain battles are.
When it comes to the Full RTA Runs of Easy%... It involve choosing battles quickly, learn the map and being prepared for all situations/battles that may occur, and avoiding menus completely. I do note that the RTA Timer stops upon FINAL CONQUEST (the FINAL, and the CONQUEST, fly into place and make a small colliding noise. That is the trigger for the split..) It seems silly to split anywhere else considering you're skipping cutscenes and skimming through menus before AND after that moment. (Plus that little Final Conquest screen is NOT skippable at all, and it really does feel amazing splitting there hahah!)
Excited to see your progress with it! Glad to have you on board! \ O /
#FindSceezy
I'll just post info and thoughts for now.
SB HD Collection is SB1 + SB2 + SB2H, so it would make sense to have a PS3 designation for the 3 games, rather than grouping them together as 1 title. Recently noticed that SB2/H works much like the Wii version in that it uses a unified save system. Anything that happens in 2 is shared with 2H, and vice versa. I don't have the Wii versions, so I can't really say if there are timing/lag differences between them. Haven't touched the PS2 versions in quite some time (the discs are probably hiding somewhere), so I don't know if the PS3 versions are possibly emulating lag/frame drops from the originals or if it's co-op that's doing it. Thoughts on 3/U and 4/S will be later...
Currently working out some rules and runs with a friend while playing and gathering some info. I do know that for SB2 and SB2H, there are stories that you can run through in addition to the Conquest and BASARA Tournament modes. Most are 5~6 stages, while for 2H, there are also 3-stage Gaiden Stories. For the Tournament modes, definitely allowing for NG+ because like hell you want to be kiting everything from Lv1 for 100 stages, especially since one of them throws 3 bosses at you at Stage 1. 2H has an additional Tournament Mode that's timed. I don't remember unlocking it way back when, but the guide book says that the stages are the same. A Stage Gauntlet is a possibility, even though there are 48 stages in 2 and 64 in 2H, ordered by difficulty. One of the problems with that is it being rather long since there's practically no movement tech like in 3/U and 4/S.
Being aggressive is one thing. Playing to the character's strength is another. Tends to mostly end up as a 6-stage run, 7 if you're unlucky. Border Patrol is a 4 minute stage, which is somewhat unfortunate, but it's still faster than dealing with Zaan. There are other quirks, like Puff almost always being the last stage when playing as Q-Ball (ideological rivals). The priming stuff is also kinda awkward. Some of the moves or even combos make sense. For others, I'm seriously going "wth" at their decisions. Oh well. Need to adapt.
Definitely need to learn the map. It's faster for me to choose stages in SB1 because it's Japan. I know where all the daimyo are from. DK... it's the same "layout", but the warped map is awkward looking. And good to know exactly where the splits are. Guess I'll have to play with the audio on. It's a bit of a bad habit, playing games while listening to my own playlists... Might do a test run this weekend. Still relearning characters I've barely used before.
The funniest thing is that SB2/H actually has most of SB1's stages... and Ujimasa's (or Orwik as you know him) was tweaked to be faster. Instead of having to do an escort mission, you get on a horse to race to the gate.
Got it, I'll keep all of this in mind. I requested Sengoku Basara to get the first game's page started but they thought it was the same thing as Devil Kings and denied it :'( ... so I still have to wait on Sceezy or Metaknight. Hopefully they make me series mod soon and I can make the 3 pages for the PS3:HD releases. I will get them started but will make you a mod for the games so that you can edit and such.
Will keep you informed!
Imma necro this thread in the most gruesome way, if you don't mind.
Righty then, gave Yukimura-den a whirl (available in Japan, as of August 25th), and it's probably the most speedrun-friendly Basara title as far as playthrough flow goes. Somewhere around 10 stages in the "Life of Sanada" mode, so far fairly linear, no randomness in which stage comes next. There is probably a free mode afterwards (...probably?), but characters and their playable bits during the stages are pre-defined otherwise. Curiously, Capcom seems to have dropped the tag mechanic from 4/4S - the one Story stage I've played that featured forced tag, had it function similarly to SW4 and its lot, as both characters are isolated from each other. Also, no orders.
Items are out, as are inscriptions - everything is rolled into preset "styles" that give specific parameter boosts and passive skills. The latter you have to unlock/activate during the actual stage. Money is literally the sole resource and you only use it to level up styles and unlock weapon skins.
New Yukimura's moveset is stupidly fast and you can go even faster with the style that has a + to movement speed as its first passive skill. Masayuki is slower (and has an obnoxiously long Basara art), Nobuyuki - the slowest (and the most fun of the three to get combos with, incidentally). Haven't tried the New Masamune yet.
NG is doable, but Capcom keeps trucking one with the silly Only One Savegame setup, so NG+ is probably the best bet still.
Yeah, just waiting for my copies to arrive (just shipped yesterday), then going to compare load times between platforms because they were quite noticeable in 4S. Was checking out a couple of streams, and it's definitely straightforward. Most I've watched, assuming they're not constantly dying to the secret stories, have been averaging around 30 minutes? It shouldn't be too long of a run. Could always differentiate between NG and NG+. I prefer NG+ because starting off is always a bit of a grind. Plus, I'm interested in seeing that new difficulty...
And the completion timer on the results screen is back! I missed it... Have you had a chance to go through the Sanada Trials yet? How feasible would it be to have a leaderboard for that?
Also recently grabbed the Game Archive version of SB1, but haven't gotten around to playing it yet because lol HDD space. Well, that and the other game I run.
Nah, 30 minutes isn't even the minimum you'll get - the two Ueda castle stages are essentially "tower defence" autoscrollers with minigames in-between, and, from the looks of it, end only once the characters' dialogue has been exhausted. Both clock at around 15 minutes. At least, that's my current impression.
As for Secret Stories, those aren't even part of the "Life of..." proper. Another note on minigames - of the 3 the game has, 1st and 3rd depend on the player to end faster, whilst 2nd is another timed affair.
NG, on second thought, would be a pain. If you have a Sumeragi save (or any other SB on PS3, I presume), the game awards you with 5K coins, so to put everyone on even ground you'd have to delete the 4S save, not to mention wiping SYD data for each new attempt. Yeah, NG+ is where it's at, as usual.
Haven't gotten to the Trials yet.
Man, I wish Capcom would port HD/3/3U to PS4. I know they can. ¤grumble¤
The players I was watching weren't exactly good, so I would expect the time to be much lower once upgrades and skill are factored in. The one decent player was going at it with Kasuga, but was also going for all the challenges and Rainbow Chances. Didn't see much of the Ueda stages because of work being rather chaotic throughout the day (game dev can get crazy). Might be possible to trigger dialogue faster? Secret Stories were played quite a bit on the streams as well, didn't see much of going through the main story with Yukimura.
Could take a poke on the PS3 once that gets in, but the official site says that it's only the 4S save that will get you the loyalty bonus. The other option is to have a dummy account if you want to go with NG while avoiding the bonus. Still doesn't help with the whole "one save only!" bit. Judging from how the others do their runs, even if it's not purely for speed, NG+ has always been the case. Too many fun options to pass up once the game is opened up.
I would like them to as well since I do like using the DS4 after adjusting to it. Plus, it's what I use for work whenever I can (hate the buttons on the XB1 controller). And if they ever port over the HD Collection, maybe fix up a few perf issues! But the thought of grinding through all 5 games again... And HD Collection being the 3rd time for those games...
The dialogue in Ueda seems to be one continuous set. Once the first half ends and you didn't fail the defence part, the minigame starts. After the game, second half kicks in.
Got the Trials unlocked, and those are pretty much Bloody Palace, which is pretty great in itself. Does DMC have BP leaderboards? If so, yeah, it's definitely a thing that can be compared, with the footnote of having 46 characters to choose from. Speaking of which, they could have brought Ujimasa back to the playables, dammit.
Oh right, both Trials and that third difficulty have an added mechanic wherein your spirit will go down whenever you're hit, but you can recover it by attacking (and landing a set number of hits, apparently).
Anyhow, there's a bit of Trials here...holy balls, it embeds the VOD? Wot magick is this? (starting at 26 min mark). Note that I'm complete ass with Kojuro. The video also appears to be choppy after I've tweaked something in OBS. Eh.
Edit: fixed the link.
No Bloody Palace leaderboards here. Haven't played DMC4 in a while, but I remember there were leaderboards for points built into the game itself. Don't remember what 2 and 3 did for ranking. Also, nice. It's like with the tournaments in 2/H, going through the stages and having optional objectives.
Yeah, they had no excuse for not having Ujimasa, other than possible asset import issues from 3U -> Yuki-den and hooking it up with gameplay with the engine change. But even then, they should have the raw data to work with... Eh, maybe they thought that 47 is an ugly number. I miss playing as the silly old guy (and all others that haven't been playable since 2H).
So that new difficulty and Trials further encourages no damage runs. As if we weren't trying to do that already, even more incentive.
Right then, managed to clear the Trials. There's 60 in total. They get harder starting from ~40 or so, but I imagine are much, much more brutal for anyone but NewYukimura or NewMasamune. Ended up with 1.3M after all bonuses. Clearing the last one (I think) gives the golden weapon skin. Amusingly, IGT clocked at ~19 minutes, but RT is more than 40 minutes long.
Still no idea how to get 3rd difficulty. Clearing the Story on Hard did jack. Side Stories then? Extra Challenges? Hmmm...
From Raindrops' site, seems like you need to clear all the Six Coin Challenges for the Sanzu River difficulty. Think it only needs to be the normal, red, challenges and not the "other" ones (gold).
Not surprised at IGT being that much lower than RT. They've always been pretty bad about it. Seriously has been a gripe since SB3, especially if you manage to accidentally trigger dialogue. But looks like stage timing stops once the last target's HP is equal 0.
