Zeekers cheat should not be allowed or at the very least made a new category

It is literally referred to as a cheat. It makes you able to break the vanilla progression of the game in a way completely different from just a normal glitch like the one that tps you from Apparatus room to main door. It should be something like the quota% has with beehives where it's split into different categories.

Zeekers is fine for 100% ILs. The timing rules were just from the start of the day to all of the scrap items collected, so it realistically just reduces reset time.

Kill% is just an RNG reducer and ejection strats (https://www.speedrun.com/Lethal_Company_Category_Extensions/runs/yvl65nxz) make it not really a timesave. Not allowed in all other categories iirc

It just doesn't feel right to be able to use a dev tool that is LITERALLY LABELED AS A CHEAT ON THE RULES that requires you to make an entire new account and rebuy the game that can immediately grant you unlimited credits and then list on the leaderboards as if it is a normal run. It would be one thing if it was it's own category, but it being considered as if it was a normal, intended tool, or even just a glitch, a player can use is just absurd.

It takes entire parts out of the run for the categories that it really, really affects (Masked 1 employee and Nutcracker). For instance, my own two employee nutcracker run. The only option other than a really lucky nutcracker spawn on a free moon is to farm enough to get to Rend. With Zeekers, that completely takes that section out because you can just immediately go to Rend. It just feels wrong to have such a big save brought about by a dev tool.

If the quota%'s can realize that such a big time save such as the beehives warranted a separate category, I feel that, and I am going to keep saying it, a dev tool and literal cheat being able to save time on par with beehives would warrant at a minimum a separate category

I would also prefer Zeekers as its own category as it changes the RNG for Kill% Nucracker/Masked and Death% Kicking drastically. Those runs felt special because of the unlikely RNG involved.

The argument is slightly based off 100% ILs on the main leaderboard: you aren't competing to get to the moon the fastest and then start your run. Zeekers Cheat allows you to mitigate scrap RNG (as Cookies said - RNG reducer) and focus solely on Kill% (in this case).

For 100% ILs, time starts when you attempt a T3 moon; time to get to the specific moon is not counted. In this case, Kill% is similar: time to get to a specific moon shouldn't be considered in the time, hence why Zeekers Cheat was allowed.

The nice thing is that anybody can use it; it is not gatekept from anybody and is relatively straightforward to conduct.

I 100% agree with the use of Zeekers for 100% ILs.

But for Kill% I don't think the situation is similar. The argument of "time to get moon" only accounts for Masked enemy, rest does spawn on T1 moons. And the impact of allowing Zeekers is HUGE due to following things:

• if allowed for Kill%, is it also allowed for Slayer%? If yes, using Zeekers for Slayer% will always be meta as killing Masked first makes sense due to one of the lowest spawn chances in the game and you would probably get a shotgun much faster - making kills like Bracken, Thumper, Spider, Baboon Hawk much safer and faster. In addition to that, you would not need to collect any scrap at all which was until now necessary to get to Rend for the Masked kill, at least in solo run

• I saw that apparently it is allowed to overextent the 60 starting credits with Zeekers for buying stuff in the shop (e.g. this run https://www.speedrun.com/Lethal_Company_Category_Extensions/runs/m305k2qm). The implications of that are wild! For > 2 player runs it is always meta to play with Zeekers cheat on as you will have weapons for all players + even expensive support items like stun gun, as seen in the run. So it would even be allowed to get jetpack to get to the facility layout faster once you bought a shovel. Using Zeekers to get to a moon is one thing due to the reasoning you gave, but allowing to overextend 60 credits is just cheating

• If you allow it for Kill% due to the reasons you gave like reducing scrap RNG, wouldn't that argumentation also apply that Zeekers should be allowed for Bestiary% and Log%? Bc then runs will get very crazy... As buying stuff with Zeekers is allowed, all runs will be people just flying around with jetpacks and not collecting any scrap - at least that would be the meta

Sorry for the long post, but this whole topic is very confusing to me, and probably for others, as there are no rules saying that Zeekers is allowed, for which categories exactly and how it is restricted, if it even is.

Credit spending over 60 was already implemented for T3 ILs as well. There was just no way to enforce a 60 limit in the case for T3 ILs since in the beginning, you would have so many credits just getting to the moon and excess tools.

Same concept here. Players are allowed to just spend however much they would like to help them with the run.

Slayer% having Zeekers is different from Bestiary% and Log%. Bestiary%/Log% are "natural" progressions that require you to go to the specific moons to get the file (mainly Log%, Bestiary% is more luck-based). However, Slayer% is an extension for Kill%, where you are focusing on killing and not anything else.

"Credit spending over 60 was already implemented for T3 ILs as well. There was just no way to enforce a 60 limit in the case for T3 ILs since in the beginning, you would have so many credits just getting to the moon and excess tools.

Same concept here. Players are allowed to just spend however much they would like to help them with the run.

Slayer% having Zeekers is different from Bestiary% and Log%. Bestiary%/Log% are "natural" progressions that require you to go to the specific moons to get the file (mainly Log%, Bestiary% is more luck-based). However, Slayer% is an extension for Kill%, where you are focusing on killing and not anything else."

Then why do I have to start my run on a new file? Zeekers is on the same level of impact as starting on a pre-existing save.

If the point is to make it more based on getting to the kill as fast as possible while reducing RNG, starting on pre-existing saves would make it faster as you could already have equipment (namely shovel(s)) without having to wait for the supply pod and thus reduce RNG. It does this by nullifying the advantage that runs that use a stop or yield sign have over ones that wait for shovel. The fastest runs will always be ones that immediately enter the facility and find stop/yield signs to use rather than waiting for a shovel to arrive. This is just as big a RNG factor as the actual monster spawns as obviously what is the point of having a monster spawn if you don't have a weapon to utilize that spawn. Being able to cut this out substantially lowers the amount of RNG needed to get a competitive run (runs like thumper and spider have gotten so low that the only real way to beat it is to get both an immediate stop/yield sign and monster spawn).

I say all of this not to lobby for the use of pre-existing saves, but to point out that if the point of allowing Zeekers is to lower the amount of RNG and allow you to immediately get into the kill portion of the run, then why not allow the use of pre-existing saves. If these were allowed they would most differently have to be a separate category, so why aren't Zeekers considered a different category for something that has a very similar timesave.

Again, we don't want the removal of Zeekers, just having it as a separate category due to the obviously unintended use of it changing runs in such a drastic fashion similar to how beehives were split into a new category for the same reason.

We have no idea what could be on a pre-existing save. Rather, creating a new one and using Zeekers Cheat we are able to determine what exactly went on and are able to verify runs.

The reason why Zeekers wasn't its own subcategory is for several reasons:

1. Creation of new subcategories multiplies the amount of dead categories there are. Great example of this is the Beehive category on the main leaderboard, which might get removed or changed soon depending on v50 release/community.
2. We took precendent from T3 ILs.
3. When it was first discussed for addition for Kill% as a whole, it was meant to be an RNG reducer, so there was no need for splits.

1. The addition of new categories with no to little runs is no reason against the split. I don't see why that would matter considering that this is about Zeekers runs being considered as if they were normal.

2. If the reason it was added was to be an RNG reducer taken as precedent from other categories, why can't you take the precedent from beehives? The point of the beehives split was to reduce RNG by allowing the game to be played in a normal way that doesn't require perfect beehive RNG, right? So why can't they be split in this instance

I love John Elmore

Zeekers cheat sucks because now it is solely rng to when the nutcracker or mimic will spawn rather than what moons i should go to and how to maneuver through such levels. Not just "oh, the mimic didn't spawn in the first 2 minuets better reset." Please make it a new category or remove it all together.

Pickledog and JuuicyFruit <3 Nice to finally talk to the only other people running kill%!

BigBoe and Void please let me know what you think of these points made in response to all people in the ticket <3 (I need some objective opinions)

With that said, the points all of you made could be more accurate or further discussed.

Bigboe, Pickle, Void:

1. Nucracker/Masked and Death% Kicking drastically. - "boe"

^Can't use it in Death% so DW <3^ EDIT THIS MAY BE LOOKED AT GOING FOWARD

2a. I would also prefer Zeekers as its own category as it changes the RNG for Kill% Nucracker/Masked - "boe"

2b. It takes entire parts out of the run for the categories that it really, really affects (Masked 1 employee and Nutcracker).

^ The ONLY correct point made here is from Boe. It changes the RNG... to allow people to take time loss. Masked and Nut will ALWAYS be faster WITHOUT ZEEKERSS on Assurance(confirmed because no sign spawns on rend/dine). ^

^ I will note the RNG is better for finding the monsters but, there is no situation in which Assurance is not faster for IDEAL run. Even if you use Zeekerss it is only temporary PB on nut until the harder RNG is hit on Assurance. ^

3a. If you allow it for Kill% due to the reasons you gave like reducing scrap RNG, wouldn't that argumentation also apply that Zeekers should be allowed for Bestiary% and Log%? - "Boe"

3b. Slayer% having Zeekers is different from Bestiary% and Log%. Bestiary%/Log% are "natural" progressions that require you to go to the specific moons to get the file (mainly Log%, Bestiary% is more luck-based). However, Slayer% is an extension for Kill%, where you are focusing on killing and not anything else. - "void"

^ I agree with what Void says about "natural" progressions being intended in Bestiary% and Log% because those are both included in the terminal/console as the story. Kill% is not included in the "natural" story progression of the game by the Creator.^

^ Also in theory Void, any combination of scrap %'s you hit will still allow you to go any T3 moon quota 2 guaranteed for log%(plus logs don't move). I would even go as far as saying there is 0 luck in a completed log%. ^

^ In Kill% you could get 3 eclipsed moons in a row with 0 killable mobs inside but full PL from unkillable mobs(aka soft lock for Q1; which could happen each quota). Even in Bestiary%, you would not be soft-locked in that position for a full quota because you can scan some of the unkillable mobs. ^

^Also on EVERY map (without soft-lock^) you can roll more monsters before getting what you want; wherewith scrap you need ANY combination of items to = $required (AKA kill% is more luck-based than at least Log% and maybe bestiary% as well with soft locks possible for entire days on kill% but not Bestiary% or Log%)^

PS: I thought the same thing as Boe does here in 3a. when I originally got told there would be a vote on that(Cough Void cough).

Juuicy to address your points:

1. Then why do I have to start my run on a new file? Zeekers is on the same level of impact as starting on a pre-existing save.

^ You make a new save to ensure that the lobby you created is identical (0 RNG change) to those of other runners (ex. seed, sales, weather). It also helps moderators to identify modified runs with different starting conditions. ^

^Loading from an existing save and the new "eject methods" DOES change the seed, weather, and sales(AKA altering the RNG of the actual kill) ^

^ Zeekerss does not change the ship's "level seed", weather, and sales but; it changes money(To isolate the categories' skillset of killing monsters, not collecting loot). ^

2a. due to the obviously unintended use of it changing runs in such a drastic fashion similar to how beehives were split into a new category for the same reason.

2b. Being able to cut this out substantially lowers the amount of RNG needed to get a competitive run (runs like thumper and spider have gotten so low that the only real way to beat it is to get both an immediate stop/yield sign and monster spawn).

I may be misunderstanding 2a and 2b. so help me out here if I miss something <3

To clarify, none of my team's thumper and spider records use Zeekerss currently which, I believe you pointed out.

^ The Spider 2man record also buys the shovel and walks in... so in end-game theory you are right but, this is not currently even close to the situation for those records. You could still buy a shovel and run in on MOST maps for both monsters using "negative weight".^

^ You also mention that even with Zeekerss, all kill% runs would be perfected on assurance or march anyway; so what is the, "obviously unintended use of it changing runs in such a drastic fashion" you mentioned? ^

^ The ONLY directly affected category in kill% from Zeekerss is dog because you can go to eclipse first rend/dine, which you didn't mention as an example for that argument. ^

PS: You kind of make your own great argument against "vault saves"/existing saves by highlighting the fact that vault saves provide time saves VS Zeekerss and regular Assurance sign runs.

PS2: Also, Zeekerss is a time loss against Assurance sign runs because you have to wait for shovels as you noted.

Pickle to address your points:

1.The addition of new categories with no to little runs is no reason against the split. I don't see why that would matter considering that this is about Zeekers runs being considered as if they were normal.

^ Although this is a good idea for normal categories ALL kill% and slayer% are already considered glitched not normal. That being true, it would not make sense to add an unrestricted slayer% when the only version is already a glitched category.

2. "[...]The point of the beehives split was to reduce RNG by allowing the game to be played in a normal way that doesn't require perfect beehive RNG, right? So why can't they be split in this instance

^ Removing beehives (accidentally) increased RNG because 3 hives on march/vow are more common than 244 assurance on 1Quota record pace. As a result, you do MORE resets of assurance to get the loot and pace you need over beehives. *Noting this point to show you possible outcomes of splitting already inactive categories as well as, mentioning the intended outcome and actual outcome of removing BEES *

PS: I think beehive categories are being considered for unrestricted rules soon(possibly including gift box manipulation) because of how dead/inactive it now is.

3. that requires you to make an entire new account and rebuy the game that can immediately grant you unlimited credits

^ If you change your main steam name and then re launch game you don't need a new account/game key ^

Summary

Zeekerss being added to the category has not changed any of the possible best times; except for dog kill% and slayer%. As mentioned my Void above as well Slayer% and kill% are not intended to show looting skill. Zeekerss has improved the running quality of the 2 runs it affected as well because there is less Idle time in the runs (No need to camp vents forever), which increases the chances of a LOOK at a competitive run, while also retaining the RNG generated by the fresh save(Seed, weather, sales, etc).

Regardless all of our points made here are irrelevant; if you think Zeekers is bad for kill%, soon you will be allowed to(STILL WAITING FOR VOTE @Voidspace) "eject spam" to decide the weather and sales on your first moon. Which gives you even more flexibility and control over the starting save than Zeekers.

Example:

Ejecting 8 times in a row at the start of the game(not timed) will allow you to start on eclipsed assurance. So you will incur no time loss and, be allowed to start on the moon and weather of your choice. With Zeekerss first day eclipsed Assurance is impossible; with "Eject Methods, it is 100% if you want it to be.

So talk about removing RNG xD You now will be allowed to remove all of it if that vote goes through.

"Zeekers cheat sucks because now it is solely rng to when the nutcracker or mimic will spawn rather than what moons i should go to and how to maneuver through such levels. Not just "oh, the mimic didn't spawn in the first 2 minuets better reset." Please make it a new category or remove it all together."

That was already the whole category? You were just going to roll for the assurance, offense, or march nutcracker anyway on an eclipsed eject reroll. (See @kawaiikat1729 's 38.13 kick%, @Bigboe97 's kill%'s)

Then for mimic, it would basically just be roll for a quick 450 and stop sign to get to dine and roll an insta mimic. Basically just a Q1 run but you need to get twice the value and also roll an insta mimic, preferably one that decides to route towards ship. Zeekers to skip to the moon is fine imo.

All the other entities fall under the ejection reroll eclipsed (and you can do it without eclipsed it's just even more of a reset hell)

Slayer% is kind of the only one I agree with because all of the other categories feel like IL's while slayer feels more fullgame. I asked if Void if he could move it out from underneath the rest of the kill% runs and do a category split for it (version 35-38/40/45+ play very differently, but only 45+ is allowed for submission in slayer)

When do i get to see John Elmore run?