Might it be faster to perform the manipped route without resetting? You could go for clusters to aid consistency, or just rely heavily on draw prediction. Winning 3 MBDs wouldn't be necessary in those cases.

It sounds like we need more time to figure out the potential of the manipulations. Rushing to a decision, especially when so few manipped runs have been attempted/submitted, doesn't make sense.

Exarion, if you're trying to rely on the fact that not much manip has been done yet to argue that we don't know much about the potential then you should be very cautious. Once you have a good enough idea of how this game's RNG works then it quickly becomes apparent what sort of strats are possible, given enough time to find out how to execute them.

This kind of scepticism came up not long ago, when Gcah asked in the Discord what the attitude would be towards a submitted run with RNG manip. People spent most of their time saying Gcah was full of shit unless he provided a video, even though he (and I, and a few others) knew enough to know it was very possible. We saw how wrong all of those people were, and quite frankly this situation isn't really that different.

Furthermore, it's hard to defend not making at the very least a preliminary decision. The decisions that are made (or not) affect what routes people spend time creating. I will also add that I am currently working on making it easier to find manips, hopefully to the point where people will be able to find their own manips. I have no intention of being the sole being able to find new strats; that would be incredibly damaging to the game and community.

Lastly, if your response is "I do not like to take other people's word on what is possible" then that is fine, but bear in mind that your lack of knowledge does not mean the community has a lack of knowledge.

After keeping up with this thread since its conception, I'm extremely disheartened to see how the discussion is progressing. I want to remind everyone that if you are not speedrunning for fun (or for a reason that in the end leads to fun), then I'm not sure you really have a place here.

Secondly, I absolutely agree a decision needs to be made rather soon. It's clear that no one is budging on their opinions. At this point I feel every post should be gone through and counted as a vote towards one or more of the options presented. The longer this thread continues, the more the discussion degrades into outright asinine arguments and the worse the community is going to look as a whole.

Please keep in mind this post isn't meant to be for one side or the other. This post is simply meant to encourage everyone to remember that they are representing the community by posting here and to try and represent it in a good way.

My post is also meant to encourage some kind of decision to be made.

I want to also note that if the decision does go towards the side of separate leaderboards and RNG manipulation then has to be defined somehow in the rules of Any% Legacy, I ask that those who were on the losing side of the vote: Please do not try and cause further distress by circumventing that definition by intentionally submitting a manipulated run for the purpose of proving a point or for the purpose of getting back at the other side. I think it's safe to assume here that if separate leaderboards are created, defining RNG manipulation would be nearly impossible and we'd almost certainly have to keep things together solely off of the honor system. All I ask is that the fragile honor system that may be forced to exist not be intentionally abused to further prove a point. If you lose, please just leave it there.

Finally, if a leaderboard split is NOT done, and we instead include a run variable for whether or not manipulation was used: I ask everyone who was pushing for a split leaderboad to please accept the decision with grace, and do not continue to complain, make jokes, or anything of the sort. Do not denounce all of the FM community because of it. Do not stop doing what you enjoy doing simply because of minor changes. Do not further hurt the reputation of the community by publicly outcrying for weeks to come. Accept the decision.

The overall point of the post is this: Whatever happens in the end (and please make the end happen soon), please accept the decision made with grace, like an adult. Show the world that this community is able to work through its issues by having a civil discussion, implementing the majority idea, and continuing on as usual.

And, all in all: Please remember this is about fun. All this discussion is about is this leaderboard. It isn't about how you're allowed to play the game. It isn't about how you're allowed to race the game. If things don't turn out in your favor, don't let it stop you from having fun, regardless of your position on this. Thank you to anyone who actually read this entire thing.

I hope we can all begin to understand that we're all playing for the same team. We're all on the same side. We're all a part of this community.

I'm starting to think the majority (or at least those who are being vocal on this issue) are in favor of keeping the category together, and adding a yes/no variable. My question is, what exactly should the variable be? "Intentionally manipulated RNG" sound good? Or do you guys have maybe something else in mind?

I'm also in agreement with GFC that the decision needs to be made sooner rather than later, because this thread is devolving into just people who have already posted arguing their side rather than more people coming forward offering their opinion.

"Intentionally Manipulated RNG" with an option for "Yes" or "No" sounds good.

That, or just "RNG Manipulation" with an option for "Yes" or "No".

I would see the categories split. Intent is the driving force in this. To me this is no different than no thtd% vs. any% ncd that often uses THTD as a lynchpin to beat the game. Intent is what divides the two categories. It is fairly easy to split the two categories into runs that use RNG manipulation and those that do not, as runs that use the manipulation to get meteor b. dragon off heishin 1 reset the console/emulator. A lot. Runs that don't rarely, if ever reset and the only reason they would reset the console/emulator that I can think of is if dark hole completely locked up their console/emulator and they had to reset to continue the run, but even when dark hole has stopped by fat ps2 it has never locked it up completely sure I would lose 10-15 seconds of time due to waiting for the duel to progress as normal but it wouldn't freeze/lock me out completely.

I side with Cyberdemon531. Easiest way to determine which category is being ran is by stream title declaring whether you're using manipulation or not as well as what transpires during the course of a run. Resets of the console/emulator followed by deliberate waiting with the intent to get a specific drop off a specific duelist are naturally any% ncd manipulation attempts. Runs that don't do that are any% ncd no card manipulation/NCM attempts.

Also of note, the game played with RNG manipulation versus played without is different on a great many levels. For one thing there is no skill in farming with manipulation; you simply pull off a frame perfect trick, get the MBD you desire, move on with the run. If you don't manipulate the game so that heishin 1 drops a meteor b. dragon, you have a great many paths you can go down in terms of ways you can build your deck via farming in terms of weighing risk/reward of what can be dropped based on who you choose to duel. It isn't just get 3 MBDs, go and run through the game, hope to get lucky on final 7 as with the manipulation it is more common to go with final 7 instead of final 6, forgoing seto 2 entirely. Just another difference.

There is also nothing remotely fun, to me, about using manipulation to beat the game as fast as possible with 3 MBDs that you get as a result of manipulation. In terms of entertainment value to viewers and runners there is nothing quite like getting an MBD drop on meadow mage SA pow or a crush card off any number of duelists.

I agree the most supported option is a flag, in that the most people on both sides have expressed a willingness to settle with that option, even amongst the most ardent supporters of both main positions. Thus, it is easily the best compromise available.

I would say we should call the flag "RNG manip" or "RNG manipulation". Adding the word "intentional" or some conjugation may sound like it's more precise, but really it doesn't help in any way and is just more verbose.

Edit: to clarify on the last bit, I cannot imagine a single situation where adding "intentional" helps anybody. Furthermore, it leaves open the obvious consideration of "unintentional RNG manip", which is just asking for more problems.

I don't really like the "intentional RNG manip" name. I would just go with RNG manip, the name doesn't really clarify in a clear way the category anyways, and having a word that talks about "intentions of the runner" makes the category look a bit silly imo, no RNG manip sounds more appropriate

My vote (if it carries no weight because I don't have a run, that's 100% fine with me) is for RNG Manipulation Yes/No

As a fairly long-term lurker of the community I feel somewhat invested in it's future and would like to add my two cents with the proviso that my opinions should always be considered secondary to the runners' own. I think that the primary issue with taking any no manip category seriously is that it is impossible to validate whether or not somebody manipulated during such a run, intentionally or otherwise. Moreover, no manipulation is kind of arbitrary a description in itself - everything a player of FM is doing is inherently 'manipulating' RNG, just not necessarily in the most efficient way possible, which is what the new route is trying to do. For that reason alone, calling the new route anything other than simply 'any%' would be somewhat farcical.

Due to that, as I've seen mentioned by GFC here, any separate non-manipulation category would have to exist on honour alone and while that has always been the case in the FM community to an extent, I would argue that the documentation and ongoing research into the new manipulations would make it an inevitability that someone would come up with a subtle way to utilize this knowledge subtly;during a potential 'Legacy%' run eventually. I will admit that that is a somewhat cynical perspective, but it does strengthen my belief that any Legacy% leaderboard should not be on an even keel competitively with Any% and as such I would be especially opposed to Any% being sub-categorized, largely due to the fact that it seems to be aimed more at placating those who still intend on running 'Legacy%' than upholding competitive integrity. While speedrunning, and gaming in general, should always be predominantly about having fun, when a competitive aspect is introduced, it needs to be respected, and, ultimately, though it saddens me to say it, what is being politely called 'Legacy%' could just as easily be called 'Arbitrary%' had it not been seriously run for years prior to a new route being discovered.

That said, I am not against 'Legacy%' having it's own category, I would prefer it in fact, however I fail to see how it can be considered any more than miscellaneous in nature. My recommendation would be that those who would be interested in running 'Legacy%' vote between having a miscellaneous category or RNG Manipulation Yes/No. I think both cater to the wishes of the new Any% runners, so it should be left to the 'Legacy%' runners to decide for themselves. I am absolutely all for fun and novelty-orientated speedrun categories and I believe that is the place 'Legacy%' holds in comparison to the new any%. That said, I believe the community leaders will make the right decision, and I'm looking forward to enjoying many more runs and races in the old and new styles in the future. I hope no comment in my post was too blunt and would once more like to assert that all my opinions are a mile's credence away from the runners' own.

Changes have been made, the thread is being locked. Thanks everyone for your input.