A discussion is taking off in the Discord server of whether or not RNG manipulation and no RNG manipulation should be split into separate categories.

There seems to be advocacy for a few different options. Some include:

1.) Keeping it the way it is with flags 2.) Removing the flags entirely and leaving it combined totally 3.) Creating subcategories for the different versions of No Card Duplication

Discuss what you think should happen in this thread. It doesn't have to conform to the above options as those are just examples.

I made a spreadsheet of what I think the boards look like. I posted it in the discord, but I guess I'll post it here as well:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R7c8oTyDxZlDFcMgFFHe_4CJCIQ22YY1L5QWomJb1uE/edit?usp=sharing

It goes into more than just the no card dupe category, so maybe most of it doesn't apply here. Might be good to think about once other leaderboard discussions start. Not sure if I left anything out in explaining reasoning in the doc, but if I did feel free to ask me.

(assuming voting is going to be done based on what we say here and I didn't make myself clear in my google doc. my preference is to have no rng manipulation as a misc category)

I think the leaderboard should look like this:

                                    No Card Duplication                                           

RNG manipulation / No RNG manipulation / Pocketstation

                                   New Game +

Pocketstation / No pocketstation

                                   100%

RNG manipulation / No RNG manipulation

                                    Misc?

No THTD no MBD / World Tournament for example?

Hi Everyone,

I'm a relatively new runner when it comes to Forbidden Memories, but I've been part of the speedrun community since 2012. I'm vouching for creating a subcategory for No RNG Manipuation (With a good ruleset to keep it from being too arbitrary). Here's my reasoning on why it should be used over the flag.

1. The Flag doesn't do its job in more ways than one.

While the idea of a flag is good in theory, the execution of the flag doesn't follow. The goal of a leaderboard should be to make information as easy to understand as possible. That doesn't just go for runners though, it also goes for those who are looking to learn the game, as well as those who simply watch. (Remember, those who simply watch may become runners someday, so making something easier for them to understand is key). The dropdown menu simply doesn't do that. Most people don't even see the flags, and go immediately to the top time for comparison. When you're comparing the top time of RNG Manip ( 1:19:28) to the top time of No Manip (3:12:39) a lot of people are going to be confused. I have viewers all the time jump in and immediately bring up the 1:19, and almost never even see the 3:12 time because the flags just aren't used.

The flag also doesn't fix the issue with regards to a fear of someone cheating by still using manipulation. Someone can still right now submit a run with the tag of No RNG Manip and still cheat. So when people use this as a reason for why we shouldn't have a subcategory, it comes across as wasted point and doesn't solve the issue. I also think that fear of cheating shouldn't be a basis for not making something a category. People will always cheat, no matter how well defined the rules are. We should do our best to make a good ruleset, but we shouldn't let that deter us from helping competition.

2. The runs are too different for comparison

This is the big one for me. I've seen a lot of conversation by some that No RNG manip is the same run. While I agree that they are similar, saying they are the same run is like saying Ocarina of Time Any% and Ocarina of Time No IM/WW are the same run. You get to the same end goal, but how you get there is vastly different. Both categories require skill and knowledge of the game. It's very obvious that No RNG Manipulation has a lot more luck and deviation. Someone who has more skill and knowledge can be beat by someone who has slightly less skill and more luck. But that's OKAY. There is still so much skill and knowledge needed to consistently achieve good times. Compare myself to someone like Aerius who is the WR holder. If we raced right now 10 times. I'd guess that he'd beat me at least 8/10 times. Why? He can A-Tec consistently faster than me, he knows how Final 6 works much better than I do, and I am more prone to make mistakes in farming/falling for AI tricks.

No RNG Manip requires you to be able to take different decks and make them work. Especially in a race setting, you don' have the luxury of resetting for multiple hours just to get the perfect deck. You have to take what the game gives you and use that deck to you best ability. A more skilled player will know how to use most decks, compared to a newer player. It's also fascinating how no 2 runs are the same, and that the strategies change depending on the drops you get. Say Isis decides to drop 3 Dragon Treasure fairly quickly. You might try meadow mage for a bit to get a MBD to pair with those DT. Or maybe you just make a push for the Final 6 with that. But let's say she drops a Widespread. Now you have more options. You can A Tec Peg, you can A Tec Seto 2. You have more options, but must still make the right decision in that moment. The decision making tree in No RNG Manip is huge, and one of the main reasons I was drawn to the category. To say that these two categories are in essence the same is just wrong. Both categories are great! I have no ill will towards RNG Manipulation and understand why runners run that category. I have a ton of respect for them. But the truth is it's not interesting to me, and as someone who runs No RNG Manip, I feel like having to compare my times to something that I feel so vastly different sucks

3. It's Good For Growth

I'd like to use the analogy of " A Bigger Net catches more fish." Lets face it. No RNG Manipulation is a much more newer player friendly run than RNG Manip. It's much easier to watch someone do a run and say "Hey that looks easy and fun, I'd like to try." I actually had a well known speedrunner come up to me and say he wanted to join, but was confused by why the no RNG Manip/RNG manipulation thing existed. He just wanted to learn the game and play what I was using. Having a dedicated sub category that we can point to and say "Hey when you join this community, you have a board where people can compete." Is a lot easier than having someone join and realize the way they want to enjoy the game and go fast in, has 0 chance of competing with someone who runs RNG manipulation.

Growth in No RNG Manipulation is good for RNG Manipulation too! I'm not saying everyone that learns no RNG Manip is going to just jump on board to RNG Manipulation as well. But the more knowledge they gain and learn, the more likely they are to at least experiment with RNG Manipulation. Let's face it, the idea of very precise inputs is not exactly what everyone is looking to do when they start learning a Card Game Speedrun. Which is why having No Manip on the leaderboards as well is a great introduction to the community. The reality is, both categories haven't had submissions lately. Outside of GFC's recent RNG Manip PB, no one has submitted a run in 9 months. The same goes for No RNG Manip. I've talked to a few runners, and they definitely felt pushed away by the community when what they enjoyed running was deemed only good enough for a flag. Recently we've seen a ton of new people show interest, and we've had some big races already. In fact we have a huge race Planned on the 18th of May at 12 PM EDT. Now would be a perfect time to initiate a sub board, that not only gives these potential new runners a place to submit, but also convinces a lot of old boys to come back and play again. Growth is good. I want to see both categories succeed.

Overall, I just want to say that while being new to this community, I really want to be a big part of it! I think RNG Manipulation should absolutely be the default category and the "main" category that people see when they check the leaderboards. I'm not trying to make No Manip take over and make RNG manipulation irrelevant. I just want a place to play against my buds and compare times. Speedrunning in itself is arbitrary, we shouldn't limit what other people enjoy doing because we think it's arbitrary. Fun should be the goal, and I believe this solution allow for all groups to have fun.

My Suggestion:

Categories

• Subcategories

Any%

• No Manip, No Duping
• RNG Manip, No Duping
• Unrestricted
• No THTD, No Duping

NG+

• Japanese
• English

100%

World Tournament

In my opinion, the category rulesets also look a bit cluttered (as well as some category names), my suggestion for them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_q6os2yYYReR_CVkUtQ1DkippHAhqt8j4VP2WFOOKI8

And guys, keep in mind that "pocketstation" is only an useful distinction in the unrestricted form of Any% (or if someone ever wants to do 100% jp. version). Everything else either bans it, and NG+ rulesets only require which cards are banned (because there's no use for a pocketstation in the middle of that run, as well as card duping).

Thanks.

I'm personally an advocate for the current layout of the leaderboard. Although I understand "legacy%" is the most popular way of people speed running the game I believe the current leaderboard layout still makes all runs clear to anybody who understands the game to see (and it's not a hard thing to explain to anybody who doesn't). I think it would be bad to make an entirely different category for what is a realistically obsolete and outdated form of any%. I also believe that separating runs because of RNG manipulation isn't a good idea. The idea of RNG manipulation is something that we are always doing unintentionally in the game anyway, separating intentional RNG manipulation doesn't make sense to me. Non-intentionally manipulated runs are exactly the same as what has been proposed as a "legacy" run, they are just played differently. I think the current leaderboard structure is the best way to take both points of view into consideration. I would also like to point out that even if you have submitted a run that has intentionally manipulated, we still allow another run to be submitted that hasn't (GFC and Redhot being examples of people who have done this), and a supposed leaderboard position for said runs can be worked out easily.

I also dislike segregating categories / sub-categories on something that is essentially only determined by intentions & good-faith, rather than a technical ruling, but at this point I would side on the playerpool culture, in which the most popular method is still no manip, both for doing the person's first completion or striving for a good time. We could argue that manipulating anything that isn't the starter deck is almost always 100% verifiable within realistic runs (unless someone decides to sneak some Rex Beast Fangs campaign bcd drop or something). All in all I think that veryfying runs on someone's intentions can be as difficult or arbitrary as other things, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Aside for that, even if manip still remains a toggle, I still think duping / unrestricted / no thtd should be sub-categories. Cleans up the view, makes things simpler, more dynamic, etc.

Creating subcategories for manip and no manip would be pretty nice so people who don't run or want to run FM don't get confused , what A3r1uS suggested would be the best imo

I feel it important to understand where I have come from in this game and speedrunning in general in order to understand how I have arrived at my positions.

I come into this discussion as someone who has lost their patience trying to beat this game casually. I resorted to RNG manipulation just to say that I could beat this game. I've only done it once because I do not have the time to devote to losing hours of my life to RNG on a regular basis thanks to my full time job. My primary speed games are the Puzzle League series (Tetris Attack, Pokemon Puzzle League, et al.). Once I have more downtime not devoting myself to those games a great deal by necessity, I want to revisit this game and improve my time. If my Panel de Pon exploits are any indication, I feel like I have something left to do in this game that piques my interest.

I also come into this discussion as someone who has successfully performed nearly full-game RNG manipulation of another Yu-Gi-Oh! game (Sacred Cards). I have also put in many hours of research figuring out how to best manipulate runs for the Japanese version of Tetris Attack, Panel De Pon. As such, I am a fan of RNG manipulation and find it to be a much more enjoyable way to play a game when done right. Other people are not interested in playing a game that way and I cannot blame them.

I also come into this discussion as someone who has gotten into multiple speed games without the support of an active community (Yu-Gi-Oh! The Falsebound Kingdom, Mario Golf: Advance Tour, Monster Rancher Advance to name a few). I have welcomed the contributions of others, but I have not sought them out. I have never personally witnessed a place where substantial community growth has led to speedrun innovation; therefore I do not value it. Some people in this discussion do value fun and community growth. I have never found those factors to be of great import to me when I am sitting down in my bedroom with just my TV, my game, and my controller trying to go as fast as I can in the moment.

I also come into this discussion as someone experienced in games where categories are driven largely by game content, not by community interest. Community-driven categories in my speed games were largely created before I got involved with them. It was always driven in my head that separate categories have varying amounts of unique gameplay. In my mind, challenge runs are supposed to introduce new gaming content necessary to play the game fast under the self-imposed restrictions. I believe that categories driven by content should be the main categories and those driven by community interest should be miscellaneous.

I recognize that these opinions are a bit unusual and could be construed as contrarian, but they are shaped on my personal experience and are just that, opinions. Several of these opinions go against what other people perceive as speedrunning norms, but to paraphrase GFC from the Discord discussion, norms do not create the rules and, to stop paraphrasing GFC and put my own spin on it, should not restrict your way of thinking.

In applying my previously mentioned principles to Forbidden Memories runs with and without RNG manipulation, and having attempted to complete the game in both ways, I find that runs without RNG manipulation fail the content test. The extra "content" found in a run without RNG manipulation consists of countless extra duels played in Free Duel mode. I find all of these extra duels to be filler as they do not actually count towards game completion. Runs with RNG manipulation, or "manip" runs, as I will now call them, also can do Free Duels for Meteor B. Dragons like I did (can't recall if that is still the case), but if I remember correctly, they are not necessary based on the old TAS that GenericMadScientist obsoleted. What different skillsets are used to optimize these extra Free Duels is of no concern to me. None of them actually advance the plot of game, but instead make actual plot advancement that much easier. As far as I'm concerned, no content of value to the game's progression is lost by cutting out these Free Duels. I could not justify a separate main category for these reasons. The current flag that exists as an in-category distinction is fine for those that are interested, but I am not affected whether the flag is there or not so I will not speak to the necessity of that flag.

I do recognize, however, that there is growing interest in making runs without RNG manipulation, or "no manip" runs, grouped into a separate entity from the manip runs. I have trouble separating the two based on the constructs of the game itself, but the reason this thread exists and the reason this subject is up for discussion again is because the interest in a separate category is there. Since this category would be community-driven and not content-driven, I am perfectly content with it as a miscellaneous category.

Wall of text said, I am in favor of doing one of two things: -leaving the two groups of runs as is for having the same unique content, regardless of whether the flag is removed or not; or -putting the no manip runs in a miscellaneous category, not a main category, in the name of community interest.

I also recognize, however, that many people would find strange the idea that the most popular category is a miscellaneous category based on their own constructs of what miscellaneous categories should be. I am not interested in being completely blind to that perspective. With that in mind, my gun-to-my-head preference would be to keep things as they are.

EDIT 1 hour later: I remembered another point I wanted to make. To anyone who says that rules should be decided by what the community prefers: you don't need a community to speedrun. This is why I prioritize the constructs of the game, which are not likely to change, over the feelings of the people that play it, which is subject to change all the time.

At the start of everything in the Discord server, I was in favor of leaving it as is now. Then, I shifted to mostly indifference. And now, I've shifted to where I think my favorite option would be subcategories.

I still have the problems with it that have been stated, but I think it's the neatest and easiest for everyone.

why would legacy be in miscellaneous? it's the most popular and ran category

I think RNG manip and no RNG manip should be separate categories (or subcategories). I like Aerius' suggestion best.

I feel like the current flag solution is already a good compromise, and don't believe a split is necessary.

I don't think there should be a flag at all but I am okay with the current compromise.

I would also like to remind those in favor of a split to also check out GenericMadScientist's thread made about proposed No Manip rules and suggest how you would want to define the difference. I am fine with a split if a clear definition can be made for No RNG manipulation.

I think that there should be sub categories. What the names and rules are can be determined later, but I absolutely believe that the no RNG manipulation runs that are currently done in races (and in regular runs, like a3's 3:12) and RNG manipulation runs (such as my 1:19) should be separate from each other via subcategories.

So, Any% No Card Duplication would have two sub categories of RNG manip and no RNG manip. Again, the exact naming methods can be determined later. But I think this is the base change that should be agreed upon.

The runs are, plain and simple, too different to only be separated by a flag.

The way it stands now, mostly everyone (if not literally everyone, including runners and viewers) considers there to be two world records within a single category, one by A3 and one by me.

So most people are already thinking of the two runs as separate categories. Why not make the leaderboards match what most people think? The only difference between the flags we have now and subcategories is that flags are much less user friendly.

I think the change would absolutely be what is best for the community and for Forbidden Memories as a game. It would clear up confusion and help encourage competition. And I wouldn't have to explain the same thing a million times per stream, so that'd be cool too.

"Well, yes I have the record, but using RNG manipulation. There's a different kind of run that doesn't use RNG manipulation and the record in that is a 3:19."

"Why are they all together though?"

"Well, they have little flags/ run variables that distinguish them. You can filter the runs with that."

"Oh... okay then."

Thats the conversation I have with dozens of people over and over again.

Now, is it making their heads explode because they just can't understand?? No. But my point is that there's no reason to NOT make things easier for everyone.

People already think of them as separate, so make them seperate.

I want to also point out that this was my original position when RNG manipulation was first found. However, I agreed to a compromise one year ago. That compromise is what you see today with flags.

However, my position has changed to a hard stance for separation. I have run RNG manipulation for more than a year following the previous discussion. Because of that, I 100% KNOW what people are thinking. I've dealt with it every stream for over a year now. I know what public opinion is. And that opinion is that they're separate runs with separate records and separate competition.

But what about cheating? With a subcategory, people can lie. RNG manipulation can be done WITH intent and without anyone being able to tell. I am agreeing with that.

Does that suck? Sure does. But it's not a reason to not separate them.

As it stands now, that same issue already exists with the flags.

If someone used rng manipulation in a run today but made it so no one could tell, they could submit it and say they didn't use it. And then everyone would consider them the record holder (or second place, or third, and so on) of no RNG manipulation.

If someone used rng manipulation in a run after this change is made and no one could tell, what would happen that's different? Nothing. Everyone would think that person is now in first place (or whatever place) of no RNG manipulation.

I heard someone say the flags aren't "official" at some point, so it isn't a big deal. Well, to the hundreds of people who care a lot about no RNG manipulation, I think they'd disagree. Those flags are the only things giving them separation.

Now, yes, with no flags, they could still do the speedruns. No one is stopping them. And no one is stopping them from making their own little Google Docs to keep track of it.

But why???? Why are we going through all of these hoops?

If mostly everyone already considers the runs to be completely different, then not having leaderboards to match is inconvenient for no reason at all. Cheating is just as much of a concern today as it will be after this change. The ONLY difference is that it will take a few less clicks to see the leaderboards as they should be.

It takes two clicks today to see leaderboards that only contain no RNG manipulation runs. Let's make it one click. I absolutely believe this is the most common sense solution that will 100% benefit the most people, while harming no one at all. This will legitimately only make things better.

I hope enough people agree so that this change can finally happen. Thanks.

EDIT: Just wanna reply to something I am seeing frequently.

To those who are saying a split can happen as long as a proper ruleset is put into place for defining RNG/No RNG manipulation: I agree. But let's talk about that for a minute.

As of right now, what is the current definition for the RNG manipulation flag?

I am not sure one exists.

So, we can assume that the flag that currently exists runs on the honor system, right? Yes, it does.

Now, earlier in my post, I established the fact that the flags carry the EXACT same weight as subcategories would.

What are the purpose of categories? To split up different kinds of speedruns and create a leaderboard that allows comparison between different runners for that exact type/flavor of speedrun. They exist so that people can look at a collection of speedruns that are comparable: apples to apples.

My point is that, as of right now, that is the exact purpose of the flags. We have the flags on the leaderboards because MANY people want to know who is completing the game without using RNG manipulation and how quickly they are doing it. In order to see this leaderboard that contains exclusively no RNG manipulation runs, a user must click their mouse button 2 times. This filters the leaderboard based on the flag and creates a page that shows ONLY no RNG manipulation runs.

When that filtering occurs, the resulting page is EXACTLY what the subcategory would look like. Literally EXACTLY the same.

So, most people are already using the flag as a way to create a different leaderboard for a different kind of run. People are using the flag to create a different category on the leaderboards.

Therefore, that flag holds a lot of weight right now. That flag is the only thing separating the speedruns currently. But yet, we are okay with the honor system securing it?

My point is that if you are currently okay with the honor system on the flags, you should be okay with the honor system on the different subcategories.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try everything in our power to create a well thought out ruleset that would define cheating. We absolutely should try everything in our power to stop cheating. But to claim that the separation can ONLY happen if this is done is silly.

The bottom line is that no matter how clear you make the rules, or how well defined the flags or the subcategory is, people can still cheat all the same. You're not actually preventing anyone from cheating by typing in rules to the LB page.

If you are looking for a way to create a block of text that completely disallows all intentional RNG manipulation, you are going to be disappointed because it does not exist. There is simply no way to stop it with text. You can have the absolute best rules typed out ever, that define what is and is not RNG manipulation perfectly well, but people can still do it.

The flags run on the honor system. The flags carry the same weight and seriousness that different categories would. Therefore, if need be, the subcategories can run on the honor system to.

"In this category, no intentional RNG manipulation may be performed. You may not knowingly wait or perform any actions in order for the seed number to increase to a favorable frame."

What I just wrote took about 30 seconds. It sucks MAJOR ass. I am promise you, better ways to define the category exist. But regardless of how well you define it, at the end of the day, the honor system is the only defense that exists. Just like with the flags. This honor system has been in place since the beginning of RNG manipulation becoming a thing in FM. And, no matter what happens, it will have to continue being a thing.

So please, continue discussing a good way to define the new subcategory. I think a good definition would help make things clear. But in the end, everyone understands what they should not do just by the category name. Whether or not they abide by it is, unfortunately, not able to be controlled.

Please continue discussing all of this. But my opinions stands firm.

For the bettering of the community and those within it, subcategories should exist.

I've stated several times that I don't really care either way, and I've come to realise that there's a reason for that.

Personally, the only reason I see for the categories not to be split is the fact that no RNG manip is very difficult to define well, but that's a fairly good reason. That being said, there are a lot of reasons for the split to occur, which I also agree with, so essentially I'm saying that my vote goes for the separation of the categories in whichever way we deem best overall, IF a good, agreed on definition can be found. Otherwise, I would rather not be considered as voting either way, because I don't feel like either side of the discussion is correct, basically I think we're all wrong for playing this god-forsaken game in the first place OpieOP

EDIT: I should also say that I am definitely NOT in favour of no manip being a misc category, whatever decision is made. I think that one of the most active, if not the most active category in a game being made misc just doesn't make sense at all.

EDIT 2: Just to reiterate that previous point even further, and this transcends any other choice I've made in voting, I actively choose to vote for whichever side of the argument does NOT see no manips being made a misc category, as I see that as the worst case scenario. So regardless of everything else, if it's stay the same or be separated into a misc category, I choose stay the same.

I'll just say I prefer no separation here, for the purposes of tallying, and failing that I would be in favour of having no RNG manip as misc.

Pretty much going to exactly repeat GMS' post as my own personal "vote". Would also like to add I would be in favour of removing the flag entirely as well.

So, regardless if RNG Manip becomes a sub-category or not, will the leaderboards stay like a little mess, instead of just making Any% subcategories for unrestricted and no-thtd as well as NG+ japanese and english?

Also the ruleset descriptions will stay like those line-skipping paragraph-long things that nobody can read without taking notes not to get lost?

Guys, these changes take like 2 clicks each, and the leaderboards would look MUCH EASIER to follow.

Alright, so finally my opinion about all this. First of all, it is not easy for me to answer this question(s) because it is quite complicated since there are so many ways how you can run this game. (also, I am on mobile so please forgive me any typos or capitilisation mistakes - german autocorrect is a mess)

I am not for a Split between manip and no manip for already mentioned reasons. (rules are hard to define, it is the same run contest wise, how should we tell nobody used manip etc.)

I also think that the current System works quite Well. I like the manip flag since you can Filter the leaderboard however you like with that. Too many sub categories can Look very confusing, too. But the flag helps us to differ between the runs without creating 4 hectodecillion different categories. So what I would do if I were the sole Moderator of this game would be to keep the RNG manip flag but also add it to other categories which are in need of that! Which would be 100%, no THTD, World Tournament, New Game + probably aswell since you can still manip for easy modes. I hope I did not forget a category.

Any% is something different I will refer to in it's own thread.

But yeah, imo there was Never a Problem with the current System besides that the flag doesn't exist for All categories. There is no need to fix something. Manip runners will still do manip runs and no manip runners can still do their no manip runs and compare them to themselves thanks to the fantastic manip flag. Just Look at a3r1uS. He has his opinion and will Never do anything which has to do with manip in the slightest, but He always kept going with his no manip runs without complaining, as far as I know.

I think a separate category for no manip might raise the probability of runners who are capable of manip to take the "challenge" and try to sneak in a manip run on the no manip category just to prove that you can't ensure that no manip is used. I Personally wouldn't do it and actually submit but I can still imagine me trying that out for science. Anyway enough of that, but I hope you get what I was trying to explain...

Oh yeah. If the Split happens nonetheless I would like to See any% no CD no manip as the only "no manip category" and appreciate it if the Rest stays together since splitting every category in manip and no manip would be Overkill for my Taste. In other words, RNG manip should be allowed in every category besodes any% no CD no manip..

Also keep in mind that what ever solution takes effect, races are completely independent so don't worry if you think the races would Change in any way.

I also agree with Spectre in that far that the rules need a better wording. Every category, not just any% no CD.