Forums  /  Warframe  /  Nova/No Nova Filter controversy
  zopneyzopney

There was a large discussion on our Discord's #category-discussion channel about utilizing a new filter to separate runs between runs that used Nova and those that did not. I asked that this conversation be moved outside of the Discord to these forums for more clarity and reducing the risk of lost information over time.

Here's the basic points for context:
• Nova dominates a majority of all categories on these leaderboards. This is due to her Wormhole ability being an instantaneous transport to any destination the ability is cast towards. There is currently no competitor that can beat her on similar skill levels.
• The current intention of the leaderboard underneath @zopney 's leadership is to highlight the best method of completing one of the category objectives quickly.
• There is currently very little deviation away from Nova, exceptions being Dojo Parkour, solo Teralyst, and some others.
• This was addressed in the past and placed in the New Category Guidelines.

Proposal: Implement a new filter that separate runs between Nova runs and non-Nova runs to showcase the variety of Warframes utilized.

Counterarguments against this idea include:
• Deviation from original intention of the leaderboard (see bullet point 2 above).
• Minor, arbitrary uses that is not significant except adding more points to fill out on every form.
• Ugliness of the leaderboards with a new row of variables.
• An unsustainable variable that changes as the game progresses.
• A vague implementation of the filter. No ideal situation for the use of filter except as a Yes/No boolean on use of Nova.
• A rabbit hole of specific details. It's been argued about when will there be a Nyx/No Nyx filter for Dojo Parkour, as Nyx currently dominates that category.

This issue has been debated in the past and the prior consensus then was to not allow a filter like this to exist, as it only allows further segregation of the leaderboards. The lack of this filter does not invalidate any runner's attempts as a legitimate speedrun. All runs receive the same moderation treatment no matter the time, submitter, or frame utilized. However, I do not want to overstep my bounds as community leader/super moderator just to prevent a filter like this from existing, I am simply looking for a correct method of implementation that satisfies all members of the community.

The idea of adding more information to runs for more value in the data is always considered, but the technical limitations of the website prevents an unseen variable from currently being implemented. Therefore, the filter would not be implemented until specific updates to the website were added.

So what are your thoughts on a filter like this?

FlappleCrumbleFlappleCrumble likes this. 
  DivineSunderDivineSunder

I'm against a "nova" filter.
Unless it's an exploit of a bug (can be subjective) or something requiring monetary investment, I think all categories should be un-restricted. Acquiring Nova is something anyone can do without monetary investment or bug exploiting = shouldn't be filtered.

The record in any given category, should be held by the fastest run imo.

deathcurzodeathcurzo likes this. 
  AkemiAkemi

I'm against the idea of filtering runs based on frames, or simply having a filter for "non-nova" runs. This would set a precedent for any meta frames. What happens when Nyx, titania, or volt becomes popular for those runs. It would result in having a horrible configuration of 37 tabs and an extra 6 in a year (based on Scott's Q&A with Tact. Potato). That or it would have "x y z, and all else" tabs which would slowly fill up as fast frames slowly rise in popularity.

My biggest problem is that this feels more like a way to manipulate the filters/leaderboards to easily allow for people who don't want to learn or attempt to learn nova to still get records. And if this is true, it will result in more discussions about more filters. Nova-less, Nyx-less, Titania-less, Boltace-less, parkour mod-less, and more. In my opinion this would make boards feel super restrictive, harder to submit runs, and overbearing for someone new. I'd rather avoid it all and say no to any specific filter for this.

However, I'm completely fine with seeing categories in the CE board (https://www.speedrun.com/warframe_ce) being nova-less due to it being for more quirky runs.

deathcurzodeathcurzo likes this. 
  VelocikittyVelocikitty

And yet, here I am, within 17 seconds of a WR without Nova. (Oh wait, its an 'unoptimized run' according to the mods.)

End of the day, it lowers barrier of entry, and allows you to directly compare yourself to others. This doesn't affect anyone who runs Nova.

"Oh but what about Volt/Nyx/Etc" Its not insta teleporting.

What happens if DE decides tomorrow to remove Wormhole? Every single board gets wiped. At least we have a way to wipe only Nova runs, as it would become unbeatable.

 
  CelesticsCelestics

I'm against.

It sets bad precedent moving forward given that Warframe as a game revolves around the Warframe character as a unit character of play.

The core discussion point here for me is whether a Warframe character is a mechanic. Quite a few games split up categories based off mechanics or concepts central to the game - for example, NG vs. NG+ can bring forth different play-style potentials, Low% forces particular parts of the game to be blocked off that encompass the entire run off of a tracked percentage value. So, the discussion with Nova should be framed in this manner - in the grand scheme of things, is Nova, by herself, a defining concept of the game? I'd say not. But others might consider each individual Warframe to be its own play-style, which warrants an effective subcategory for each of them. This doesn't scale IMO, and I think that having each Warframe be its own mechanic isn't the right idea either (as opposed to say characters in a game like Crypt of the Necrodancer).

As for WR discussion: Let's be clear here - speedrunning should not necessarily be a measure of WRs. The goal of speedrunning is to - as a collective - improve upon execution of the intricacies of the game such that it can be proven possible that humans can in fact beat the game in faster ways over time. Friendly competition is fine, but the focus is not on "who is the best", but rather "how fast can the game be beaten by us".

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  deathcurzodeathcurzo

I’m against as nova in my opinion takes the most skill to speedrun with a fast time. By separating her all it does is create a speedrun tier of a lower skill set with slower more varied times. If your want to make a parkour tier then that’s different, that would be fine where no abilities are used in the run. But speedrunning is speedrunning and it’s getting the fastest time, no exceptions should be made. Also people complain if they don’t have nova, she isn’t hard to get and her unvault just made it even easier.

 
  VelocikittyVelocikitty

And this statement was missed. Again:

End of the day, it lowers barrier of entry, and allows you to directly compare yourself to others. This doesn't affect anyone who runs Nova.

This does not effect any runs, but allows you to directly compare yourself to people who also don't run nova. There is no freaking downside, stop treating it as if it is a giant one.

 
  deathcurzodeathcurzo

^^doesnt lower entry barrier because getting normal nova isn’t hard and newer players are much less likely to even care about speedrunning as this is more of an endgame thing. So if the argument is that nova is “unfair” to newer players, she’s really not. And the whole point of the speedrun is to get the fastest time possible, which is again achievable only with nova.

 
  E_DragonE_Dragon

Despite being someone who doesn't run this game partly because of Nova, I'm still against a Nova filter to increase the number of categories. As stated above you would still only use Warframes with abilities that speed you up and you don't gain much of a variety.
Also it doesn't lower the entry barrier at all, because you still need all the mods and gear for your optimized builds to achieve the fastest times and getting these takes a lot more time than farming Nova.

Instead of making an entire filter, I'd rather just add another variable stating the warframe/ -s used in the run.
That way you just provide additional information without increasing the number of categories.

ThatBlueThatBlue and deathcurzodeathcurzo like this. 
  DivineSunderDivineSunder

Saying that banning nova decreases the barrier for entry is plain false, you have the same thing with volt, zephyr, hydroid etc. They are just as "hard" to get, so the same argument could be made for banning them. And then there's the build you have to afford to get the best times, the mods and the forma. This is a rabbithole that never ends.

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  zopneyzopney

@E_Dragon, the information would be very valuable, but currently the website is limited on how it handles variables. Any new filter added is essentially another column on the leaderboard. I'll leave a suggestion for hidden variables except through the filter system and viewing the run directly on the development-related channels and hopefully we will see something going forward. Current plans for December/January look like notification updates and possibly site messages.

ThatBlueThatBlue likes this. 
  zopneyzopney

I left a post in the Feedback thread about a variable that would not appear in the columns of the leaderboard, but could still be filtered. This feature may not be seen for a very, very long time, but the suggestion is there and continued patience is needed.

For now, I will not honor the current filter request until the suggested feature has been created. While I find information like this very valuable, I also do not allow the obvious segregation this currently would create. I also ask that the community respect the choices of frames and to not allow a tolerance of an elitist frame attitude. Basically, it boils down to the following points, which may be updated in the Rules & Guidelines.

• Respect a player's choice of frame. If they need help, provide help for their selected frame. "Just use X frame" is NOT a satisfactory response and should be an attitude shunned by our community.
• Do not use your current placement on the leaderboard as a judgement of your skill or ability. The most important aspect I stress is that your placement is not the purpose of these leaderboards. Your current placement is meant to be as a motivator for you to improve your skill towards a better potential placement and to use other runs to help you improve. The competition we have created on these leaderboards is to allow you to work towards the goal that you create.

This thread will be unstickied, but discussion will continue onward. Feel free to leave your comments and feedback.

 
  SchieSchie

As someone new to the world of Warframe speedrunning, perhaps I can offer a different perspective. As a side note, I don't mean to step on any toes, but regardless of my intent, I probably will, seeing some of the responses on here already. The idea of submitting runs, is terrifying to new people. Seeing a WR with Nova is terrifying. It completely destroys the enthusiasm that someone might have towards wanting to run this game. And saying that a Nova filter doesn't lower the bar of entry is ignoring a massive point of contention, skill.

Nova is extremely high skill, by allowing a leaderboard that negates Nova, you are by definition lowering the bar. And while you can easily obtain Nova, as it has been mentioned before, the mods take time to gather. I respect anyone who can play Nova and go for masterfully performed WRs, but allowing a more accessible category or filter can't hurt anything, besides maybe some pride and elitism. And a lot of the reasons that have been stated to not do this have amounted to nothing more than elitism, whether you want to admit it or not. Speedrunning should be open and accessible to everyone, not just people with twitch like reflexes, which is what Nova amounts to.

As for the Nyx, Titania and other arguments that this is a slippery slope, none of those frames come anywhere close to the skill ceiling you have to perform with Nova. I think you're underestimating the community by thinking that anyone will be asking for all of the frames to be sanctioned off or something like a Rhino only leaderboard.

With Nova in the position that she currently is, there is no competition unless you run her. Atleast having a non-Nova board, it will open up fresh competition and takes nothing away from the players who play her, if anything it glorifies it as a thing to work towards if you want it.

 
  zopneyzopney

This is a preface to explain that I want to take action to create a proof of concept, but I also need y'all to be aware of some issues. The first part of this reply is some issues involving implementation, which do not need to be addressed right now, and the second part is the plans for a proof of concept of this filter, which will be released soon.

Disclaimer: This is not a permanent change to the leaderboard. This is a process of testing the waters for this concept instead of speculating outcomes. If you do not agree with the actions taking place, provide a constructive response as to why. This applies to both sides.

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The skill level of anything not Nova is probably the best counter-(counter-?)argument that holds some weight behind it. It is definitely significantly easier to "master" a different frame other than Nova. I can definitely see how this could help more novice runners get their feet wet into speedrunning.

However, the next biggest step that would need to be hurdled is implementation. These questions were not necessarily discussed, so I'd like to clear these up.

• Implementation of this filter would require an extensive overhaul of the backend variables if it is not applied to all categories. A global variable, like the Update variable, is a single variable that applies to all runs in every category, even if new categories are created. If this variable only applies to certain categories, there will be a major implementation delay. Is it really worth it at that point? I only bring this issue up, because there's 60+ categories available and for each to have a separate variable would be quite a major task to overcome.

• I'm assuming that there will only be two filters: Nova and No Nova. Does Nova have a significant enough gap to separate herself from literally all other frames?

• How would categories where other frames dominate certain leaderboards be handled? Examples: Nyx in Dojo Parkour; Ember in MR 4 test.

• Would this filter be handled as a variable (where the filter appears in the column) or as a subcategory (where the filter will have two separate leaderboards)?

• How would a filter like this apply to the full-game leaderboard, such as Planet runs, where frames can be freely swapped between each mission?

These are just some details that need to be addressed, but is not necessarily the end point of discussion. I'm extremely uncomfortable with a filter like this (this is an objective point of view, not an elitist one), as I do not agree with an obvious segregation like this. However, I'm willing to work with y'all, if y'all would indulge me the same courtesy.

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Seeing as there seems to be a large enough interest for a filter like this, the only way to satisfy the mod team as soon as possible is through proof of concept. As such, there are two candidates that I would like to test this system on, both with the ability to be dominated by Nova. The first category is the developing individual level Test: Sabotage megacategory. Once fully developed, Sabotage will have three other subcategories under each category: Fire, Ice, and Magnetic. The second category I would like to try this with is on the developing full-game leaderboard Spy Rush category. This is similar to the Boss Rush category, except with the spies being the focus.

Once these categories are developed, I'll make an announcement about the testing filter, so please rally others to try out this new concept. The more interest, the better I can help build a case to use this. The points up above do not need to be addressed when these test categories are released, but will need to be ironed out before it can implemented globally.

 
  SchieSchie

Let me clarify a little bit. I understand not wanting to split the community and I see that there has been an extension community made that I wasn't aware of in my first response. So I apologize for some of those blunt and striking comments. That said, I still stand by that skill is a big enough factor to stagnant growth or interest in the community. And without new faces coming in and submitting lower tier / skill runs, they'll never get better.

And I've seen it in other communities, specifically the other game I used to run, Dark Souls, where a few glitches that dominated the game, were keeping new people out. Glitches, most of the time are banned because they overtake a game or community, being considered essential (along with TOS and exploit rules in some games like this one). And while Nova isn't a glitch, she has overtaken the game.

I'm glad to see that you're at least willing to give it a chance though and hopefully it does bring newer faces in. If it doesn't I can see non-nova stuff sent to the extensions board and that would be ok too in my opinion. I will definitely submit runs for Pavlov when or if the filter comes to be.