Forums  /  The Site  /  Feedback thread
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs

Lmao. Okay.

Some people don’t want their times on the site so mods can’t just add them. Additionally, nobody can ever claim something as a definitive WR because who knows what exists outside the realm of video. I think you’re looking into the term a little too much, most people here know that the term can be loose and there might be a faster time somewhere else.

(As an aside, I don’t think the site ever actually calls anything a WR, just 1st place. It’s only users and communities who generally use the term)

ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets, QuivicoQuivico and 5 others like this. 
  OverswarmOverswarm

Things I dislike about the site:

There are "main categories", "misc categories", and "game extension" categories. I think automatically making certain runs NOT a "misc" category based on number of entrants would be a good change. I ran SMB2 "Princess only Any%" and was a little surprised to see it listed as a "misc." category when it has more runs than many other NES games. Rather than leaving it up to a moderator to decide what is and isn't, an automated system based on the number of runs could be good.

I'd also say that the "category extenstions", "misc." and "main" categories should all be under the same title card. If I open "Legend of Zelda" I should be able to toggle between main, misc, and extension categories on that same page. Ideally a mod should be able to create multiple "boards" for the game -- like individual levels categories, full game, high score, oddball stuff, etc. Maybe a selection of pre-set boards, but multiple boards would be great.

There are no values other than "time" -- having custom values (time, score) and the ability to rename those values could help for different types of runs.

Having multiple names for a game is important. If you search for "The Peace Keepers" you'll not find it on the site because it is listed as "Rushing Beat". This is kind of bonkers, as the image actually shows "The Peace Keepers" and the runs are in the US version of the game.

Things that would be cool:

Having a "cobweb" game selection -- games that haven't gotten a run in a while, as a search option.

Having the ability to search games by oldest WR.

Having the ability to search for MULTIPLE user histories would be neat. "How do I compare against so-and-so" could be answered by searching for both and only showing games where both runners have submitted something.

Having a % score based off of the WR could be good too. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., is great, but even if it isn't public it'd be nice to see the % difference in time. If I have the WR in a game at 4:59.95 and 2nd place is 5:00.15 its a different story than if 2nd was 7:00. Just be a neat metric to see how far ahead/behind you were.

I also think a built-in "speedrun score" could be something neat -- having a ranking system that gives point values based off of your placement (or time) compared to others in the same game could be a neat leaderboard, especially if it had different categories (e.g., "All games", "NES", "SNES", "Zelda games", "Mario games", etc.). Making it a limit to only count games with X runners to be calculated could make for a pretty neat leaderboard.

 
  TalicZealotTalicZealot

My reply for most of your suggestions is that you cannot take that control away from the individual game communities and put it into some kind of algorithm, because of the vast differences the games have and the various needs and properties the categories themselves present. The score thing just sound atrocious, some xbox achievement level horse shit. The search and filtering stuff is cool, more data and discoverability is always welcome.

ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets likes this. 
  blueYOSHIblueYOSHI

@Overswarm About the whole main, misc, extension thing: It shouldn't be sorted automatically because it isn't just about the amount fo runners where a category belongs, it's about what it is. Take SMO's Dark Side and Nipple% as an example, Dark Side beats the game but Nipple% doesn't, it's just a meme and as such, in most cases, it shouldn't be a main category despite having more runners.
I do agree that it would be nice if the category extensions would be at the same place as the others, similarly to ILs.

It's being discussed what should be done about highscores here.

I do agree on the new search features and the comparison thing (as long as it only compares the games/categories both played).

I disagree with any kind of score system for users, that would imply that a certain runner is better than others which very often isn't the case, despite the runner having a better score. And even if that isn't the case, it would take way too long to find a good balance and even implementing all of it, it just wouldn't be worth it.

ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets likes this. 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets

Originally posted by Overswarmautomatically making certain runs NOT a "misc" category based on number of entrants

Why? Just let the community decide whether a category deserves to be considered a main category or not. Not even taking things like meme categories or special condition categories into account (one game I moderate has a Misc category that definitely should never be a main category, regardless of how many people run it), you'd never be able to make a one-size-fits-all algorithm that everyone on all 14k games would be happy with.

Originally posted by OverswarmI'd also say that the "category extenstions", "misc." and "main" categories should all be under the same title card

This is where the site eventually wants to go with this. Category extensions are a band-aid solution.

Originally posted by OverswarmThere are no values other than "time" -- having custom values (time, score)

It's unclear what exactly the site should do regarding score runs. There's more info about that in this thread.

Originally posted by OverswarmI also think a built-in "speedrun score" could be something neat

I'm not personally a huge fan of this sort of thing (arbitrarily assigning numbers to things and trying to get the highest number is a really stupid reason to do stuff IMO), but that aside, while something along these lines could work for some games (the Goldeneye community famously has their own ranking system on https://www.the-elite.net ), it's another one-size-fits-all issue. Making a scoring system that would work for every game on the site is an impossible challenge. Better to just let each community create a ranking/scoring system for themselves if they want to (as many have done) rather than forcing everyone to use an inevitably flawed global one.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman, TalicZealotTalicZealot and 2 others like this. 
  DoodletonesDoodletones

Here's some (probably bad) ideas I had.
My main issue is that when running a board that there's not a lot that can help weirder games out like MMOs. I understand the needs of many outweigh the needs of few, but games like the one I run could benefit from multiple IL-like boards (one for Main Map, one for Challenge Hall), I also remember someone bringing up how a game they ran (SuperTuxKart) could also benefit off of this so who knows what other game could benefit from it? ^^; - I also still think being able to better organize variables with subvariables could be beneficial to some games, but I can understand how that would make things messy and would only really benefit the aforementioned MMO boards.

idk, just thought I'd throw in my own two cents.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman, blueYOSHIblueYOSHI and ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets like this. 
  OverswarmOverswarm

For the community deciding thing, this would be letting the community decide -- the people who run the game. If a category is a "meme" category it, by default, will have a small number of runs. I recently added a game to the site and am the only run, it is a rare game and is essentially a "meme" game -- but the Any% category is considered more legitimate than a misc category in others. By default misc categories are hidden on profiles and misc categories are hidden on the boards unless someone goes looking for them.

As an example, the "All Levels" category in SMB2 has less entrants than the Any% (Peach Only) in SMB2, but only 3 mods have submitted a time for that category. It's objectively more popular, but not necessarily with the gatekeepers. I don't see why an empirical metric shouldn't be used instead of an arbitrary metric decided by (mostly) arbitrary people.

You can see evidence of arbitrary decisions in multiple games -- Super Mario Bros. 3, for example, has its Any% as its last category while 100% is its first -- despite Any% having drastically more runners than 100%. Zelda II has Any% as its first category and 100% (all keys) as its second, but 100% has significantly more runs. They have the same situation on both games but with the opposite action -- its arbitrary.

Legend of Zelda "second quest -- Low%" has five entrants, and its one of the most popular games of all time. The Legend of Zelda "Traditional Dungeon Order -- No Glitches" has twenty two entrants. Assuming these were on the same board (the site's intended direction), why would the more popular category be listed as "misc" or "category extension"? What would the process be to change that and is that process the best way of going about it?

If the popularity of a run matters, that can be done automatically. If the decision is arbitrarily chosen by a select few, is that really the best outcome? I have the world record for Wolverine, but it doesn't mean I should decide whether or not a "Wolverine -- 100% All Burgers" category should be considered a 'main' category or not if others would want it to exist as a main category and actively run it.

I don't really care about SMB2 (just a visible example) and I'm not saying that certain categories shouldn't be manually chosen by mods to be considered main categories even if they don't have any runs; there's certainly room for arbitrary decisions, but in the opposite direction. Rather than arbitrary choices being exclusive, they should be inclusive -- e.g., mods saying "even though 100% is an unpopular run due to its length, it is a staple of the boards and a legitimate run that should be showcased".

I do think a system that is arbitrarily exclusive by nature and creates gatekeepers doesn't actually provide any benefit. Having one that allows for the natural, organic growth of a board without having to deal with gatekeepers seems to be a better long-term system, especially when this site doesn't have any direct forms of communication.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this. 
  blueYOSHIblueYOSHI

Meme category do not have less runs by default as seen in my example with Dark Side and Nipple%. And the "main" category shouldn't just be the most ran one, it should be a good one that is entertaining, good for beginners or the most competitive one. There are even more reasons depening on the game, but it's definitely not just the most competitive one imo. Mostly the best one is also the most competitive one but not always.
Back to Nipple%, it doesn't beat the game, it's just a part of the game and as such I don't think it would be a good "main" category, it should be one that beats the entire game like Any% imo.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman, ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets and 2 others like this. 
  OverswarmOverswarm

I could definitely see the "main" category requirement being a full game (meaning start -> ending), but my point was more the arbitrary nature of the various boards. Speedrunning is more or less fragmented at the moment, but it is growing. As people stop running (but remain inactive mods), certain runners become mods on dozens of boards, and new blood come in with new ideas, arbitrary can lead to unnecessary sluggishness or conflict.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this. 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets

Originally posted by Overswarmthis would be letting the community decide -- the people who run the game

No, that's not letting the community decide. That's letting an arbitrary algorithm (created by people who don't run the game) decide. The way things are currently, the community gets to decide. If the people who run the game want a misc category to be changed to a main category, all they have to do is ask the moderators to change it. You're talking as if the moderators get to decide everything even if it's not what the community wants, and that just isn't the case. Moderators aren't supposed to be the all-knowing, all-deciding rulers of the community, they're supposed to be representatives of the community who maintain the leaderboards and fulfill the community's wishes as necessary. If the community wants something to change and the moderator unreasonably refuses, then that moderator should (and will) be replaced.

And again, no matter how fancy the algorithm is, A: you'll never be able to make one that works for everything and satisfies everyone, and B: there's no way that it can account for categories that should not be main categories, regardless of how many people have run them.

You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist with a solution that wouldn't work.

Originally posted by Overswarmthis site doesn't have any direct forms of communication

While this is true, it doesn't really matter. The moderators are still responsible for being available for communication and checking the forums and such when necessary, and if they fail to do so they can be replaced. Also, as of 6 months ago all new moderators appointed by site staff are required to have valid contact info linked on their profiles.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman, HabrenoHabreno and 3 others like this. 
  LivLiv

I think if we proposed some kind of automated, arithmetic based method of ordering leaderboards, most people would be against it and dislike that the site is using an automated process to order their boards for them.

I would also argue if this was the case for lesser popular games, meme categories would become the norm (they're usually easier to look good in because they're typically less optimized, so if people could push these out of misc. through pure numbers they probably would) and more optimized categories (such as Any% or 100% without any added 'meme' stipulation or totally arbitrary modifier) would be pushed further and further back, possibly into misc.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman, QuivicoQuivico and 6 others like this. 
  ShtrudelShtrudel

Please allow users to hide the twitch player in the main page, or at least make it not auto-play, it's really annoying.
And make those changes optional in the user settings, because some might like that for some reason.

TreyaTreya, ImaproshamanImaproshaman and 9 others like this. 
  DoodletonesDoodletones

I had thought of another idea (assuming it's not already implemented and I'm just missing out).
What if there was a viewable waiting list for runs to be verified?
Like in games, people (who aren't mods) can see pending runs?

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this. 
  DoodletonesDoodletones

idk, I just thought it up randomly and thought it'd be an interesting idea.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this. 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets

When someone edits a run and it needs to be re-verified, it would be very useful for moderators to be able to see what was edited. There's no need to do a full re-verification if it's just a description or info edit, but I'm currently looking at a really old run that was edited and I have no way to tell what's been changed.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman, starsmileystarsmiley and 5 others like this. 
  TalicZealotTalicZealot

It is probably in the audit log, but finding that would be annoying. A notification for mods at the least would be really helpful.

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  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets

Not to mention the audit log is only accessible to super mods. Having to talk to a super mod any time this comes up is not exactly ideal.

While on the subject, mods should really be able to see the audit log too.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this. 
  OxkniferOxknifer

Hmm, thought I posted here earlier but the post didn't save. Maybe due to the password change thing that happened.

Anyways, I agree with Shiken on Reg Mods accessing the audit log. As for having mods see edits on re-verify runs, it would be nice, but I don't think that's a big issue -- mods can write something in the comments if needed.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this. 
  DerpethDerpeth

You should be able to sort leaderboards by date.

ImaproshamanImaproshaman likes this.