Forums  /  The Site  /  "Adjusted" time to account for time difference between consoles?
  nub_hatnub_hat

People have recently started running a PS2 game on their PS3.

The emulated PS3 version loads sections a lot faster, and it has resulted in an otherwise unreachable time blowing out an old record in the most popular category by more than a minute.

Here is the game in question. http://www.speedrun.com/klonoa2

If you see it from us old runners point of view we have spent a lot of time routing and improving at this game, and we would prefer not to see all our old times effortlessly getting blown out without any new gameplay-related time savers.

It's a bit of a divided community and we cannot ban PS3 runs without pissing the other half off.

I think everybody would be happy with a solution where you can have PS2 and PS3 runs side by side while still keeping both consoles equally competitive.

Something like an "adjusted" time as seen in the Guitar Hero community would be perfect to allow people to compete on both consoles.

Here is an example of a leaderboard with adjusted scores. http://www.scorehero.com/rankings.php?group=2&game=0&diff=4&song=619

The only time difference between PS2 and PS3 is the time spent loading in between sections/levels, I will be happy to time this if it can help out with this problem.

If that is not possible another solution could be to have seperate leaderboards for consoles, which is also seen on this Scorehero page.

It doesn't make sense having the PS3 runs unadjusted alongside the PS2 runs because of the enormous time difference, it is impossible to compete on the original console in any sort of full game category.

I hope you can help us out.

 
  zewingzewing

Or you could just get a PS3 like other runners from every other game and compete just as fairly instead of making a problem over nothing. Also PS3 is not an emulation, it is EXACTLY the same concept as running a PS1 game on a PS2, why haven't those communities done this either? Same concept as placing a GCN disk into a Nintendo Wii. Same concept as placing a Wii disk in a Wii U. Same concept as placing an Xbox game in an Xbox 360. What makes the PS3 special enough to warrant this?

In addition, was this even brought up with series mods and the only active Klonoa 2 moderator, fenrijay? I've seen no communication with community from you at all nub_hat, this is not how a community moderator acts. This is the actions of a sad old boy who doesn't even keep up with the times. You have been inactive from this site for 8 months, the time you get back you ban a run without talking to moderators, you shit up my youtube comments sections, and you believe it's unfair to run on PS3 when others run on PS2. Everyone has equal access to a PS3, just like everyone has equal access to 90K model PS2's.

Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531, GoldGold and 4 others like this. 
  YarumasiYarumasi

"it is EXACTLY the same concept as running a PS1 game on a PS2"
If he doesn't realize how 100% true this statement is, he is delusional. It's the exact same premise

 
  CrystalChaosCrystalChaos

The moderators could make a column for time without loads if that's the only difference between the consoles

 
  SaradocSaradoc

Quote

Or you could just get a PS3 like other runners from every other game and compete just as fairly instead of making a problem over nothing. Also PS3 is not an emulation, it is EXACTLY the same concept as running a PS1 game on a PS2, why haven't those communities done this either? Same concept as placing a GCN disk into a Nintendo Wii. Same concept as placing a Wii disk in a Wii U. Same concept as placing an Xbox game in an Xbox 360. What makes the PS3 special enough to warrant this?

All the communities who allow this are fucking degenerate already, no need to spread this shit further. Buying hardware is not optimizing a speedrun. Fuck off to reddit with this shit.

 
  zewingzewing

Grats on adding relevant text to this i_o_l

Optimizing a speedrun and optimizing a time is different. If we were only about optimizing a speedrun, then why aren't we having judges that look at runs and say "yeah this run looks better lets place it at #1"

Oh wait, we can't do that because not every game has IGT, not every game is Super Mario Bros. Better hardware is always going to be used regardless of what people think, and people can run on whatever legitimate platform they want. Litearlly no one cares about being that guy who has the best ever PS1 speedrun but lost 5 hours due to slow loading. He should be #1 though!

Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531 likes this. 
  SaradocSaradoc

It's about fairness. There is anothing fair about this system where you can in theory "beat" a run on hardware that wasn't even released when the guy you beat did his run. There's a reason no relevant PC game community has this attitude: it would be blindingly obvious to even you that the guy who spent the most on his PC would have the lowest time every time. And you don't need arbitrary judge decisions for this either: You convert if possible, you set a list of allowed versions or make different categories if not. PC games do it, SM64 does it, the Mega Man community does it, we do it for Lost Levels too. The only reason not to do it is laziness and easy WR.

 
  zewingzewing

The PS3 was released well before the guy did his run, his run was from 2015, I think PS3's have been out longer than that lol

I understand what you are trying to say, but every community listed (except lost levels) are terrible examples.

Mega Man community converts lag amongst game, something you can't quantify since lag is based on how long hitboxes are in contact with enemies (at least in x4, X5/ X6 has igt), how long a screen is lagging, and how many times dash lag shows up. They also convert PSX times and PC times as one. Every single PSX model and every single PS2 model loads the game differently. Even PS3 playing PS1 and the various PSN's load differently, but are dependant on many factors they never bother to quanity (did runner use PSTV? Did runner has solid state drive? Is runners PC garbage?). PC's load the game differently, yet there is a single conversion number with known inaccuracy. I don't think it's right to ever have inaccuracy in conversions because it makes one of those platforms unintentionally "optimal" instead of "equal"

SM64 is the epic "shit on you for playing on VC since it takes less skill." Who has the right to say what version is less skillful.

About laziness? It's nice to have human error for factoring out loading zones, always nice to have a time be slower because the person doing the conversion is either biased or bad at math. So yeah, Non PC communiites are terrible, but PC has advantage of at least running scripts / programs that calculate time w/o load that is insanely accurate. Give that to the playstation community and I'm sure every single person would be on board, but inaccuracy should never be accepted. I'm sure everyone will love to have to manually time out loading just to put runs on a website.

One final thing but in essence by stating the whole loading and conversion thing, you'd effectively force runners to local record at native console FPS and / or get a 60fps webcam and all the loading zones must be captured. There is no simple solution when dealing with aging consoles. Stuff must be done manually, and I don't think there's enough man power dedicated to watching runs down to the frame to find out how long each loading zone lasted.

Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531 and MilkMilk like this. 
  kirkqkirkq

He is pretty much just requesting something like the SMRPG/MegaMan players do with converting times:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KQW1YIyy9vVxZcrzxN4PAItUyZK8fEPbbeCvWHyU5xU

The timer code eventually needs rewritten to support an arbitrary number of arbitrarily named timers, and ideally a time could be a function of the variables and some offsets. This requires quite a bit of an overhaul of the code, but it is something we'd like to support eventually.

This is sort of what the subcategories variable was produced for, to give visual distinction between two things that aren't directly comparable. It may or may not be able to address this use case though.

 
  MilkMilk

Zewing making a remark about something i_o_l mentioned isn't exactly a 'rant'.

SMRPG is just adding or subtracting some time if it wasn't a different timing method, while nub_hat wants a separate column to somehow convert or time out loads of a console version of a game.

 
  kirkqkirkq

Eh, I guess it's more personal beef. I didn't really read that closely. Still seems a bit out of place in a relatively neutral thread, but I'll remove the comment.

MilkMilk likes this.