Forums  /  The Site  /  Cheating and Cheaters
  ViperViper

@GarshGarsh you should edit your first post to have the list of cheaters at the top of the thread

GarshGarsh likes this. 
  KomradeKomrade

Quote

I think the question here is aimed more towards to "exactly how will we give this information to game moderators so that they can decide what to do with their runs?

You remove all runs associated with that banned account. Simple. Solves the "naming and shaming" issue. Solves the thousands of games/moderators potentially affected. If you think removing all runs associated with a cheater is a bad idea see my first post. This really is one of the few instances where site staff should intervene, when they should normally just let communities handle themselves. Instead cheaters are unbanned and I still get ads for a game that a staff member wanted to promote.

IvoryIvory likes this. 
  survivalMichisurvivalMichi

if somebody cheated they should get a ban as punishment to rethink it, doesnt have to be a perma ban.
I dont think all times should be removed that should be the descission of the communities of the affected games.
just automatically removing everything takes that descission away.
Also full deletion makes it way easier for many to just change to an alt.

 
  KomradeKomrade

Every cheater I've encountered just deletes their account anyways. It's the edge cases like these where that doesn't happen. Scenarios like this are one of the few benefits of having a platform like src to protect all communities from cheaters. If you don't see the issue with allowing them to cheat again or allowing their previous potentially cheated runs to remain on leaderboards then I don't know what to say. I'm all for communities running themselves, but I don't see why you would even use src if not for the reason of cross community protection from cheaters, but then again I advocate communities handling themselves off src anyways, so whatever.

 
  ViperViper

I personally don't support site-wide bans for most cases of cheating. Once elo releases an update to do community bans, I think there should be public reasons as to why the user was banned (when they submit runs to a different game), but I still think site bans are excessive. Most cases of cheating I've found come from users being ignorant of game rules (such as limiting fps to make cutscenes run faster, unlocking fps for gameplay to be faster, using multiple input methods to improve game movement, etc.) and should not receive site bans for these reasons (these are the most common forms of cheating in the games I mod).

Situations such as splicing (to an extent), using external applications (to an extent) and stealing runs should be held up to a site-wide standard, but like I said, most forms of cheating aren't these, so I believe community bans w/public statements are the best route to go. Creating a list here (or in a new thread) would be a good solution for the meantime.

 
  survivalMichisurvivalMichi

speaking of we need an extra tag for illiterate people who cant read rules.

@KomradeKomrade what do you mean potentially cheated?
if cheaters get marked and moderators notified i would check the runs.
if there arent to many. and i didnt talk about repeated offence.

Also i generally run boards where its more than hard to properly cheat, its mostly not bothering to read the rules.
i wouldnt remove all the runs if the person cheated. (still check though)

 
  GarshGarsh

@ViperViper I added a small list of cheaters I could think of off the top of my head. If there’s any more you think I should put there, let me know.

ViperViper likes this. 
  LivLiv
(edited: )

I don't really think you could classify "cheating" via not reading the rules, and cheating by intentionally being deceptive as the same thing, though.

If someone uses the wrong emulator for a board and submits a run due to flat out not reading emulator rules; I don't think you can class that the same as someone who say... uses cheat engine to modify their run speed very slightly, or splices. One is simply ignorance, and the other is someone intentionally going of their way to give themselves an advantage and actively trying to get an illegitimate run through.

I don't think Komrade is asking for people who simply can't read rules and mistakenly submit a run that doesn't follow those rules to be banned. It's the people who do use nefarious ways to try sneak their runs by with a time faster than it should be, or the people who claim other people's runs as their own.

WrapWrap, O.D.W.O.D.W. and 7 others like this. 
  ViperViper

@GarshGarsh that list seems kinda....meh. Let's go over each one

Dream was community banned by the Minecraft mod team. He does not run any other games besides Minecraft so it's completely pointless to put a site ban on his account. His method of cheating was also very specific to the game he was running (you can't really run those types of mods in other games), so a community ban seems most fit.

7H3 is banned so I don't see a banned user submitting more runs to the site. Excluding that (let's say they are unbanned after a year), I do feel it would be most fair for listing a reason for their ban, and individual communities can decide if they deserve to be blacklisted or not. Should receive community ban from cheated community once unbanned.

Jaypin is a different story, more or less commiting the same offenses as 7H3, but as you know was unbanned sooner than most anticipated. Jaypin should (and is) community banned from Sonic, but as with 7H3, I personally think they should have a public reason for their past ban, and communities should blacklist this runner if they feel it is necessary. I do believe a full site ban is still excessive.

Rundown: my personal opinion is that site bans should only be given to cheaters who cheat in multiple communities. I believe a one time offense should be at the discretion of the victim community, and a public statement posted somewhere. They should also be banned from this specific community.

@LivLiv I believe my initial message was not clear enough. I do understand when runners submit runs without reading the rules (it's annoying but you can just give the user a warning). It's the repeat submissions after the initial warning that I am referring to, as this is going directly against the rules to give yourself an advantage. I've seen this happen before where a runner would continue to submit runs with a lower than allowed fps for a game after (2) initial warnings, who then was blacklisted from the community. I do believe these instances are (more) common than what you would think, but are often brushed off by mod teams who just classify it as "not following the rules".

It would be nice to see a list of these runners, more so than the high profile run stealers/splicers that everyone on the site already knows about. The people who can actually get away with it.

BaldicBaldic likes this. 
  Oreo321Oreo321

@ViperViper Blacklisting players from submitting runs into a game because of not following the submission rules of said game, seems WAY too harsh.

discranoladiscranola, WrapWrap and 7 others like this. 
  WalgreyWalgrey

Slightly off-topic, but dealing with people who decide to spam runs that don't follow the rules is a tad annoying to deal with. But whenever that happens, they usually get a temp. ban from site staff, so really, there's no issue here.

O.D.W.O.D.W. likes this. 
  SizzylSizzyl

I agree that the public shaming idea is dumb, but I'm all for a kind of warning that a player has cheated and what exactly they did so I can look out for it. I also am 100% on board with not removing all runs a cheater had out of fear, chances are a majority of their runs aren't cheated. There's a few examples where this isn't the case like with top track mania runners, or like in the case of Dream where it's virtually impossible to know which runs were cheated, which is why I think game mods should figure out what to do with a player rather than simply site wide banning them (unless they did something like jaypin allegedly did and submit other people's runs as their own to multiple communities).

BaldicBaldic, ViperViper and HiHi like this. 
  LivLiv
(edited: )

In Dream's case the game mods did definitely know he cheated, though the issue was to the common person they aren't going to understand a shred of what's being said unless they actively understand Minecraft on that level or have some idea of how the programming in Minecraft works, coupled with the fact that he was denying all of it. In the end even he came out and admitted his RNG was altered, it just ended up being some rather weak "I forgot to turn a mod off" basically, after months of him staunchly denying it all.

As for always leaving it upto game mods it's like Komrade pointed out, really:

Originally posted by Komrade As far as giving moderators access to this information instead of just banning the cheater, what if moderators change? What if new ones get added, old ones leave, etc. Part of why cheaters should just be banned from submitting runs across the site is because moderation can be abused as well. How many mods could be protecting cheaters right now? We have no idea, cause once again it's all based on trust.

There in some way needs to be an unbiased party in my opinion when it comes to cheaters, and site mods basically fulfill this purpose.

HiHi, O.D.W.O.D.W. and 4 others like this. 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

To understand how Dream cheated properly for noobs, @karljobstkarljobst is just the perfect guy to go to.

 
  RetroPacmanRetroPacman

Everyone who has posted in this thread deserves a ban...
Uh... wait... what

 
  [user deleted]

You responded to this thread buddy, welcome to banland as you wished.

KupsKups likes this. 
  O.D.W.O.D.W.

Banland... 'tis a silly place.

 
  survivalMichisurvivalMichi

its just a model anyways @oo.D.W.

 
  HiHi

Believe it or not, a lot of people speedrun that game at the moment.

 
  O.D.W.O.D.W.

You know what they say, you're only ever supposed to run it once