Forums  /  The Site  /  Cheating and Cheaters
  HiHi

Did Dream get banned on the entire website? No.
Did he cheat (at least) 2 runs in RSG? Yes.

TuttereyTutterey likes this. 
  KomradeKomrade

I think having a forum ban and a game ban separate of one another is fine. If someone gets banned from the forums they should be allowed to continue submitting runs, and vice versa. I'm assuming we're strictly talking about cheaters here though, and how they shouldn't be allowed to submit to leaderboards after being caught out.

HiHi likes this. 
  TRLittleToasterTRLittleToaster

Quote

Did Dream get banned on the entire website? No.
Did he cheat (at least) 2 runs in RSG? Yes.

That's a standout case, a very very popular youtuber getting accused of cheating with the only evidence being probability. I did think he cheated even before he admitted it but if he were to get banned off of sr.c 1. it wouldn't do much, he was only speedrunning minecraft and to my knowledge at the time he hadn't even done that for months and 2. it would be a very bad look on speedrun.com for a lot of people

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  GarshGarsh

The handling of the dream thing was mostly a publicity act by sr.c (by that I mean not banning him, not putting out formal statements, etc).

 
  KomradeKomrade

I don't know much about dream but was he not banned for cheating? More to add to the list I guess, though I suggest just not using src at this point.

 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets

Definitely do not like the idea of public shaming as a punishment. Vilifying people on the internet doesn't really accomplish anything. And even if you think they really deserve it (we're talking about cheating in video games here, put your pitchforks down), this community can already be pretty toxic at the worst of times, encouraging public shaming is not exactly a step in the right direction. Especially with how easily misinformation can spread, and that being accused of cheating is not always final. Also, feel like people are way less likely to confess to cheating if they know they're gonna get blasted for it.

LXndxZzZLXndxZzZ, nupalinupali and 5 others like this. 
  11
(edited: )

Originally posted by ShikenNuggets
Vilifying people on the internet doesn't really accomplish anything

I thought it was pretty clear that nothing about this is with the intent of vilifying or punishing anyone. The point of this is so that we can try to have a place where moderators can see why other users are banned. This is unfortunately one of the only real ways to do it with the current situation.

Edit: That was forum post #1337
https://i.imgur.com/wOIF3Yq.png

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  KomradeKomrade

The person that cheated is at fault for cheating, not those calling them out on it. I agree we shouldn't dog pile on someone or shame them or some stupid shit like that, but they are the one's that cheated. If you have any semblance of care for the integrity of all leaderboards on this site you'd want those that cheat to either be banned or labeled as such.

nupalinupali, O.D.W.O.D.W. and 4 others like this. 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets
(edited: )

Originally posted by 1I thought it was pretty clear that nothing about this is with the intent of vilifying or punishing anyone

Directly from the first post is why I'm bringing it up:

Originally posted by GarshThe penalty for cheating should be immediate (but not irreversible) removal of all runs, public shaming, and being banned from submitting runs ever again

I do agree that game moderators need a way to know if someone on their leaderboard has been banned for cheating.

discranoladiscranola, luigidasonicluigidasonic and 5 others like this. 
  GarshGarsh
(edited: )

People usually don't confess to cheating, they generally get found out then go saying how sorry they are that they did it and all that. Cheaters who admit to it before getting called out are the exception, not the rule. If you don't want to get publicly shamed for cheating, don't cheat, it really is that simple. Also, being publicly shamed doesn't prevent people from refuting cheating allegations at least until they're banned. Being banned should only happen after it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but that's another issue. Allowing game moderators to have a way to know if people are banned for cheating will likely result in public shaming. May as well embrace it.

 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets
(edited: )

Originally posted by GarshIf you don't want to get publicly shamed for cheating, don't cheat... Allowing game moderators to have a way to know if people are banned for cheating will likely result in public shaming. May as well embrace it

Sorry, but no, absolutely not. This is a garbage take that's just an excuse to continue being a garbage person. Just because someone did something mildly bad/stupid (allegedly, even) doesn't give you free license to be a terrible person to them. Will public shaming happen anyway? Almost certainly, but that doesn't mean you should actively be part of the problem or encourage people to do it.

Originally posted by Garshbeing publicly shamed doesn't prevent people from refuting cheating allegations

It would make it rather difficult to even want to try if the entire community is pushing against you because some idiot thought it would be a good idea to publicly shame you for something you didn't even do, that they can't even be entirely sure you actually did. People are also very slow to change course on this kind of thing even when new information comes out, so the aftermath of that will likely continue long after allegations are refuted. But sure, just don't cheat 4Head

If you seriously don't see a problem with any of this, I don't even know what to say. This is ridiculous. If this is really a common stance here, then personally I will have no part of this.

discranoladiscranola, nupalinupali and 4 others like this. 
  [user deleted]

" Also, you can't change your name or access your settings while you are banned (at least according to @LorLor )." - @GarshGarsh I've been banned before so I can tell you what it is like. As a banned user there is still a few things you can do, you can still log in, you can still do follow settings I think, and from my banned experience it wouldn't let me change your username but I remembered I could still change a few settings.

WrapWrap and GarshGarsh like this. 
  diggitydiggity
(edited: )

This whole shtick of public shaming is so fucking toxic and is counter-intuitive to your point. You aren't making the community better by encouraging it. Have some empathy and stop trying to be self-righteous and trying to "take matter into your own hands" so to speak.

Have some empathy into the mind of a cheater. Contrary to what is apparently popular belief, people who cheat are not pure evil. Sometimes they're frustrated with their game, sometimes they just want to look cool, sometimes they don't see what's so bad about it, whatever the reason, it's usually misguided. No need to try and SHAME people out of a community and online for doing it. (although I do think there should be bans from submitting runs)

That's why I told yall to fuckin relax and get over yourselves.

discranoladiscranola, CurruffCurruff and 2 others like this. 
  [user deleted]

I would say the only cheater that deserves to shamed on is Billy Mitchell because he not only cheats but also sues or threatens to sue people and companies that only say that Billy Mitchell did cheat. And Billy Mitchell has screwed a lot of lives due to that, while you are trashing on a bunch of cheaters just think at least they are not mad enough to sue everyone here.

 
  MrMonshMrMonsh
(edited: )

If there's something we can learn from Twitter (and really here, there's not much to be learned from that cursed platform) it's that people just looove going on witch hunts, and specially more so when they don't have the faintest idea what it's all about and just like to join the band-wagon.

Now, cheating should 100% get you banned and/or at the bare minimum get you a tag on record, marking the ins and outs of all the user's offenses in that regard, with that info being readily available for any leaderboard moderators that have to verify a run from said user. That being said, making that information publicly available for just anyone to see is not going to yield any possitive results and it's just exposing a person unnecessarily (and rather irresponsibly I'd say).

There's a very distinct line between "allowing moderators to make informed decisions" and "broadcasting a person's faults to the whole world". I personally don't think any site can be built with the latter as a foundation without being a magnet for trouble/drama, so I'd advise against it.

nupalinupali likes this. 
  survivalMichisurvivalMichi

if it is aviable to moderators in games you have runs in, you might as well make it puplically aviable.you either dont care when it comes out.
and when you care its so big news that it will spread.

Merl_Merl_ likes this. 
  Merl_Merl_

There isn't any easy way to make information accessible to all game moderators without making it accessible to everyone. I'm not in favor of the public shaming but a collection of users and their ban reasons is a useful thing to have, and I think that making a thread like this isn't a terrible idea. The intent isn't to harass people.

Bob-chickenBob-chicken likes this. 
  MrMonshMrMonsh
(edited: )

Originally posted by Merl_There isn't any easy way to make information accessible to all game moderators without making it accessible to everyone.

The site could very easily append a rule for game moderators to not disclose that information, under the risk of a ban. Also, you could make it so only game moderators for leaderboards that have a verified run or a run awaiting verification from a past offender can access that information (since it's otherwise irrelevant to other moderators).

Yes, leaks can still happen, but it's all about deterrence. Just because it's not a foolproof solution it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Originally posted by Merl_I think that making a thread like this isn't a terrible idea. The intent isn't to harass people.

Me neither, but that's only because as of the writing of this post game moderators have 0 access to past info on cheaters. However, even if the original intent isn't to harass people, making it available to the broad public will more likely than not lead down that path.

The one issue I'd see with the approach of giving access to that info on a "need-to-know" basis would be in cases where a supermod is deciding whether to accept someone into the moderation team of their game. There'd no real way to give that supermod info on the cheater without disclosing it to everyone else, since currently there's no official "moderator application" state/process like there is for verifying runs: the supermod checks out the user of their own will, and if the user passes they get the role. So it's obviously not without issues, but I believe it can be done.

 
  KomradeKomrade
(edited: )

I really don't understand all the nonsense about public shaming that you guys are going on about. As far as giving moderators access to this information instead of just banning the cheater, what if moderators change? What if new ones get added, old ones leave, etc. Part of why cheaters should just be banned from submitting runs across the site is because moderation can be abused as well. How many mods could be protecting cheaters right now? We have no idea, cause once again it's all based on trust.

It's a simple solution. If you cheat, you can't submit runs anymore. I'm not sure what's so hard about that. For individuals with a large audience external to the site, I could see the issue with banning them. People that don't understand how LBs work, or simply want to go to bat for their favorite eceleb could flood the site. Unfortunately the integrity of all leaderboards should be more important than "we don't want to upset people on youtube :(" Since it clearly isn't, I personally won't submit runs in the future lol.

 
  MrMonshMrMonsh
(edited: )

Originally posted by KomradeAs far as giving moderators access to this information instead of just banning the cheater, what if moderators change? What if new ones get added, old ones leave, etc. Part of why cheaters should just be banned from submitting runs across the site is because moderation can be abused as well.

Agreed, cheaters should be banned from submitting runs. I think the question here is aimed more towards to "exactly how will we give this information to game moderators so that they can decide what to do with their runs? Will the information be public or just accesible to mods?", since they still have to deal with all runs that were already submitted by the user.