Forums  /  Kunio-kun series  /  Super Dodge Ball  /  Quick reset?
  baldnatebaldnate

I notice in DAIKON's run that he has some way of resetting very quickly to the beginning of the all-star match that seems to skip going through the initial menus. Is this a version difference or some sort of soft reset? It looks like it would make the early game reset grind that much smoother. Any ideas?

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  Chambers_NChambers_N

Hmm, that is interesting. If we can't get that result with the console reset then what is it, a save state? The submission does not identify it as an Emulator, but even if it was, the game needs to be reset, which would not yield this result. Therefore, I think it should be questioned as you have rightly began to do. Marth verified it, so I am curious what his thoughts are. Obviously a power on or reset is the common practice, and any sort of save stating, even if only for convenience having no other impact upon the game, is banned generally, and if need be we can reject this run and state this more clearly.

 
  buffalaxbuffalax

Here is the VOD of the whole stream. It looks like he is using some sort of combination of buttons to load a save state. I do not know a lot about everdrives or any other NES flash cart, but that's what it seems like. there is a point where his capture card blinks out on an earlier run so it doesn't look like emu.

He starts running it at about 3H15M in give or take and does it for the remainder of this VOD

 
  MarthSRMarthSR

@CLChambers00 While most games generally require a full reset, it is not always the case. We certainly didn't specify that in the beginning, but we didn't have any reason to either. Most of the time, it is to prevent potential RNG manipulation, but in this case, the RNG goes so wildly out of place that it would be virtually impossible to successfully and consistently manipulate it, even through a save state.

However, that is only my opinion on the matter. Since we didn't explicitly require that, and since there is no manips done from that save state, I allowed it. Now if going forward, this is something we want to require, I won't oppose that either, as I personally go for full resets by default (yep, even on games like Pinbot in which it is annoying as all hell) just to be safe.

Now in this specific case, since the RNG can't, based on my observations and knowledge of the game, be humanly manipulated from that potential save state, would the best course of action really be to invalidate all of DAIKON's runs based on this unwritten rule? I personally think not. All we'd do is turn a good runner away.

Plus... we haven't even asked DAIKON. Has anyone reached out to him yet? It would be quite the dick move to wipe his runs without hearing from the guy, and presenting our concerns to him.

@buffalax: An Everdrive does indeed allow for save states to be loaded, in their own proprietary format. Those states are not compatible with any other emulators. So tampering would require knowledge on the format of those state, which, as far as I know, only Krizz (the guy who builds those Everdrives) has.

 
  MarthSRMarthSR

By the way, I notified DAIKON of this thread, so he can come and weigh in on the whole situation.

 
  DAIKONDAIKON

Yes, it's used by an EverDrive through an RGB Modded AV Famicom. My console setup would force me to walk 5-10ft from my setup to reset my console everytime. I've ran the game 2400+ times and the save state did not manipulate my runs in any way.

Thank you Marth.Sk for being supportive. I know you were there for many of my runs and I really enjoyed playing this game and getting many friends in to the run.

With this thread seems to be causing trouble/issues in some individuals, I would like my runs deleted and removed off. I have lost my desire to play this game. This is the first game I've taken seriously as a speedrun and just seeing this post just completely turned me off from speedrunning this game or want to speedrun any games in the future.

Thank you speedrun community.

D

 
  FinnZillaFinnZilla

I also load from save states so are you going to bring the Witch Hunt my way? His run was well within the compliance of the run rules and I believe it should not be taken down whatsoever. Please take time to familiarize yourself with the rules of each game before calling discrepancies.

 
  jeremyarroyojeremyarroyo

I don't see what the issue is with Dai's run as the save state that he used starts before he controls the characters which is what is stated in the rules of when to start the run. What difference does it make whether the state starts there or at the team select screen and you start your split at -3 secs when you press to start the game from there? His entire broadcast was posted and if you actually watch the whole thing he does show how to do runs starting with the -3 secs. Since it's not stated in the rules that a full reset is required his preference is to start the state when the stage loads which is right before character control takes place. I don't think it's right to disqualify someone's run if it wasn't clearly stated in the rules before hand that when using a flash cart a reset is required.

Honestly, from a person who was looking to run this game as it is a fun game and not many people run it and looking at a perspective from the outside in, it seems this is being brought up because of Dai rising up the ranks fairly quickly and that PJSalt is building up from someone who is probably thinking along the lines of "how is a new guy to this leaderboard rising so fast, especially if they have already pasted me already?". I know a few of you on this leaderboard and I'm sure you have seen me especially from the Contra community and I mean no disrespect, but just because someone brings this up after Dai has submitted several runs with no issues seems a little too suspect. It's these kind of things that turn people off on speedrunning certain games and then certain games are labeled games that have a toxic and "clique like" communities. Dai is a great retro caster who has a love for Super Dodge Ball because it was one of his favorite games as a child and was willing to spread that positive thing and give this game exposure through his twitch channel. Now something as minute as this has ruined hiim wanting to run it now.

It didn't take me long to rise up to the place I'm in on the Contra any% category and all I have received from everyone on that leaderboard is commendation, encouragement, to keep pressing forward, and to keep improving my time as best as possible. I'm definitely not at Angrylanks skill at that game, but he sure as hell makes me feel like it. Seems Dai is getting the opposite treatment for improving his skills in this game so quickly.

All I'm saying is that before jumping to conclusions and saying you want to strip someone of their run, and one that is legit based on the rules given, come to a consensus and then all the runs going forward at this point in time should follow that. Implementing new rules and enforcing them retroactively doesn't look good nor show any honor for the community of this game which will mark this game as one that is toxic and "clique like".

 
  baldnatebaldnate

I was just curious what was going on, and that's why I asked. New runners (especially those as dedicated to the grind as DAIKON) sometimes find new techniques in games, and that's what I was curious about.

DAIKON: I hope you reconsider. This game has few active runners, and fewer that play at the level that you do.

Since this has turned into a rules discussion, I'd say that explicit is better than implicit. If save states have always been permitted, then say so in the rules so all can be aware.

 
  SvenimaSvenima

I know DAIKON for a long time now and i know he would never cheat or use any tools to manipulate a run in his favors. There was never a ruleset about Save Stating or anything so i don't know why people want to turn down an amazing run of a skilled runner that had good RNGs in a Game that is full of RNGs.

Even if it's a save state on Stage 1 right before his Character moves and it would be a possible Manipulation, why issn't his time on USA around the same all the time? I mean it's not like 0.1 or 0.2sec differents or anything. But with USA out of the Way there are still more stages full of RNG. Yes i run the game maybe not 2400+ times like DAIKON but i did enough to say it's no way to get the same outcome everytime.

But with that out of the way i must admit that "Witch Hunt" let's me quit running that game, i enjoyed it to run it with Friends and DAIKON was the one who made me run the game. For me it's the end of running SDB and i wish you'll take down my run of the Leaderboard too.

 
  buffalaxbuffalax

The general rule of using emulators and things of that nature across the board has always been "If you can't do it with an original cart on original hardware then it is going outside the capabilities of everything original and therefore isn't allowed." We had a similar situation pop up the other day which led to the creation of a general rule set for NES runs. Whether the save states changed the RNG or not doesn't really matter. It's using a tool outside the capabilities of original cart and console so technically it is tool assisted.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1apP69VDIzUx-iVO_sj5YjTxBAE2ukHPa6kl33AOW9hA/edit?usp=drivesdk

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  AngrylanksAngrylanks

Save stating has always been a big no when doing attempts. Even from the start of a game. It can effect a game far more than people may realize. Not saying people have this intent when doing so, and unfortunately it seems this isn't common knowledge. Something that bothers me about speedrun in general is that you can't find these rules. And Nate hadn't made an accusation at all. A bit unfair to accuse him of such.

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  Toad22484Toad22484

This thread is rather ridiculous. Calling it a witch hunt is absurd. The rules have always been and always will be no save states allowed for any reason. It is not a natural part of the speedrun process in any way. There is nothing to take personally here and the attacking of the OP over his simple question, you need to calm down. Very unwarranted and unwanted. New runners may not know this and thats perfectly fine, it happens often. Speedrun.com is becoming the centralized source of speedruns but its still rather new in the grand scheme of things and all rule sets aren't up to date unfortunately. Buffalax linked the standard emulator rules in the thread already so I've no need to repeat any of them.

When it comes to speedrunning it's always best to try and emulate as close to console as possible. That in no way means you can only play on console. Emulators are a fantastic tool that help get many people into speedrunning, including myself. Everdrives are also amazing for allowing practice on the console itself or to play a game that is simply way too expensive to get (Little Samson for instance). When you speedrun though you won't be allowed savestates or Lua scripts or any of that because its simply unfair to console runners. All we're doing is making it an even playing field for everyone, that is it. Save states can muck up in game RNG a lot regardless of how early or late they're used. This is why they will never be allowed. I'm sorry if that disqualifies a good run but you definitely have the skill to pull off an even better time in the future!

puke7puke7, Chambers_NChambers_N and 2 others like this. 
  ViruseReturnsViruseReturns

I'd like to say @DAIKON, please don't feel discouraged from running the game and submitting a new run that complies with the rules. I can understand that this rule has not been written explicitly like people have said up there, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed, same happens with turbo.

It's like, and I'll bring a really dumb and exaggerated example just to make it clear, you weren't allowed to have your own gun, and you're using it to reset the console. You can say, "I'm not killing anyone with this gun, I'm not doing anything wrong", but still the rules are there.

It's also OK if you didn't know that's something not allowed, not everyone has to know everything, and that's nothing to be embarrased of. That's completely OK and no one is pointing you with the "cheater" finger.

I also think that the "witch hunt" kind of comments don't help at all. It's not a witch hunt. It's something that shouldn't be there, it's running the game from a savestate every time. Please don't be unreasonable.

My suggestions would be:

• Try to move your setup in a way that you can reset the button at least with your toe, that's what I do when I'm using an original cartridge, or not joking or trying to be funny with you, get a long stick to reset. IIRC that's what vidtendo does or at least used to do.

• Get a Powerpak, these allow you to reset the game from a menu, and still this thread makes me wonder if that's something that should be allowed, I've read that it emulates the console soft reset in a tas wiki, but I'd like to hear opinions about it too.

Again, don't get discouraged!

@jeremyarroyo: your accusations don't help at all, and I really don't think they're true.

 
  jeremyarroyojeremyarroyo

Just to make it clear I did state that I was looking from the outside in, hence in Dai's point of view, and I said I meant no disrespect. Playing Devil's Advocate means we need to look through the eyes of the one being questioned and think how they feel about it as well as pointing to the consequences of how people would feel in the after effects, also taking into consideration they may not know the unwritten rules. The initial start to the thread didn't specify that it was a discussion about strats/techniques, as it was later said to be, and then it escalates to maybe the run should be questioned and that it should possibly be rejected even though he has submitted several runs previously that were not questioned nor rejected, and then a response showing his vod all makes it look like there's people building evidence trying to discredit and prove the questioning of his run. It was getting pretty one sided from his point of view. If his first run had been given this scrutiny I'm sure Dai would of accepted that and start his runs the way everyone is saying it should be done. However, again, unwritten rules are not in the rules that are with the written ones. Dai doesn't speedrun as often as some of us do so you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Again, all the points I'm making are from how Dai would look at everything that happened in the thread before marth added him to it to weigh in how he feels about it. I wasn't accusing, I was stating a scenario. I even mentioned not to jump to conclusions which includes both sides of the coin.

With that said now I would like to give some points that concern me. buffalax points to a google doc with these said rules that's dated April 8, 2018. Why isn't this posted in the rules for all nes games now? I understand toad stated that it is not posted eveywhere, but if it seems everyone came to a consensus that this should apply to all nes runs. Shouldn't there have been an effort made to ensure that everyone running nes games see this in the rules of their perspective game? It's boggling me that this doc is not in the official rules, he was also not told about this on previous submissions, and now being pointed out that his skills are good enough to do it again because the run is gonna be considered invalid. But at the same time you're telling him don't be discouraged and to keep running the game after reading this thread. That's a bit exasperating to say the least. Think about how Dai feels about that. To tell someone that followed the rules according to what is written and saying they have the skills to do it again after all the attempts they did to get there can come off as insulting and discouraging.

I personally know Dai, we lived close enough to where we could hang out in person and get to know each other. I wouldn't blame him for not running the game anymore after this. I'm at the point myself where if unwritten rules are gonna be scrutinized, not on the game's written rules, and then be enforce unwritten rules before it is set in stone on the rules section and strip people who followed what they were given to follow, then I'm not gonna keep speedrunning. This is starting to sour my fun of speedrunning and it's not just this one thread that has done it. It seems to be happening a lot through speedrun.com games. I'll still be around to hang out with those who I frequent on their channels and there's definitely no ill will or feelings as I am the type of person to have open discussions like this and leave it here. But the sour is real with these unwritten/written rules issues. If the goal for any game on speedrun,com is to get people to run their games then things like this really need to get it together.

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  ViruseReturnsViruseReturns

"and saying they have the skills to do it again after all the attempts they did to get there can come off as insulting and discouraging."

How? Please explain how this can be insulting and discouraging, I think it's exactly the opposite. Getting recognition as a skilled player is insulting for you? He got up there because he has the skill to do so, and no one is questioning that.

Please keep in mind just one simple thing: the category requires the game to be run on Easy difficulty, and there's no way for the person who verified the run or to any other viewer to confirm the run was made on Easy, if he loads a savestate from the beginning of the first match, skipping all the menuing before.

 
  Toad22484Toad22484

Yeah I never discourage people in any way when it comes to speedrunning whatsoever. That was meant as a compliment to his skill level as hes grinded this game a lot and is clearly quite talented. There was no happiness taking down these runs. It hurts to take down a quality run. I was simply trying to encourage him to continue running this game without save states in the future because it'd be a shame to lose a quality speedrunner over this.

As for not being in every NES rules section, somethings are missed. We all do this in our free time and there are a lot of NES games and people get preoccupied with other stuff. That was my mistake and I will add them now and to every board I moderate for future reference.

To sum it up: No one thinks DAIKON was cheating whatsoever. There is no questioning of his skill. Save states are not allowed in speedrunning at all. It effects games in too many ways and is unfair to do so. No one was calling anyone out they simply wanted to know what was going on in the video. No need to add any further drama on this issue.

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  Chambers_NChambers_N

When you do a save state you are fixing the RNG from a particular starting point. So instead of starting with the initial power on/reset memory address values, you are now starting from a fabricated state of fixed values at the start of the first match that would perhaps otherwise be influenced by the initial menuing to start the game. Any method of playing the game that modifies the conditions of power on/reset are introducing a fixed element that would otherwise be more random by nature.

This is obviously banned no matter if one argues that it still "seems" to be random otherwise. The point is not whether it can be proved that it is "just as random", the point is that we all start under the same conditions, and that condition is how the power on/reset influences the RAM. The amount of change team redos to avoid swami are fixed at a certain point, and much leading up to this influences what that will be.

Even if it can be proved that nothing prior to the start of the first match influences this RNG, which I think is the case to be honest from what I have looked at a long time ago and only in passing, so don't quote me on that, it is still not playing the game under original conditions: "If you can't do it with an original cart on original hardware then it is going outside the capabilities of everything original and therefore isn't allowed."

This was a hot topic in the NES Metriod discord awhile back where I found that the Everdrive and Powerpak fixed an RNG related memory address that is otherwise uninitialized by the ROM, taking whatever is in the NES RAM at the time, instead of a fixed value fed into it by third party hardware. This case was different because what the Powerpak and Everdrive did in this case was found to be achievable by using different NES consoles to find one that would do the same.

There are also cases where emulators can not duplicate the starting process of original hardware such as Who Framed Roger Rabbit. As soon as we found out how fragile the RNG is, a sub routine running more than 20 times per frame, and that the effects upon it by variances in how the hardware functions, a behavior that does not occur with an emulator, then emulator was banned because the conditions were no longer the same.

Here is another example of this rule applied to Paperboy:

-Save states are NOT allowed to setup RNG, such as playing to the end of a spot where you will game over to achieve certain RNG values and then loading that state to game over faster. While setting up RNG before a run is easy to do and it may not seem like there is any difference but a time save, the use of save states at all is a slippery slope that can be used to justify other advantages in other games, etc.

In the above example, a save state would be a mere convenience, just as it would be if one did a save state near the end of the initial cutscene on Strider before any inputs are required by the player. This could same more than 25 seconds per reset. Yet this has and never will be allowed.

I used to have my NES farther away from me where I had to lean down to the ground or poke it with a stick, but that is on me for how convenient I make resets for myself. I now have it sitting next to me where I don't have to move at all.

I don't want there to be any hurt feelings about this discussion, either on the part of those who would allow the DAIKON and other runs using save states. It is a technical question, not a personal one. It never should have been allowed in the first place, and yes, at the first sign of this should have prompted a rule so that people could see what is expected of submissions, such would have prevented this event. Baldnate's observation was the first time I became aware of this situation otherwise we could have had this discussion earlier.

@DAIKON I would encourage you to take time to process how this has effected you and to keep your decisions regarding speedrunning tentative at this time. Emotions usually run high as a result of these events and the decision to seize all participating in the speedrunning community I think would be a mistake. All of the positive experiences that one can have within this awesome community will overshadow this experience in no time. [CLChambers00 hugs DAIKON and all involved]

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  Chambers_NChambers_N

Due to the recent discussions on this game I would highly encourage all submissions to include the power on or reset. This will help to avoid any appearance that one could still be using save states. "Recommended to always include the reset/power on from the previous run in your submission. This helps to show that the run was not started from a save state or a movie file."

Submissions that do not show this, without any other evidence such as a full broadcast showing resets, may lead to suspicion and we would like to avoid any issues in any future submissions.

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