peonypeony

At any level, if the death caused by dropping, press pause at the frame which decides the death, and this level will be skipped.

 
  Chambers_NChambers_N

That is cool and fair game for Any%. So this is a frame perfect trick then? Interesting. Was the final one a "credits warp"? Does that skip the final boss? I don't recall.

 
  SpiriaxSpiriax

Great stuff, HouJi! After doing some testing I can confirm that this glitch only works for the JP version. I never tested the PAL version, but I would assume it's based on the US version anyway.

Yes, CLChambers - triggering the glitch there in that pit in the final stage brings you right to the ending. Actually, all the places where the glitch were demonstrated in the video is everywhere you'd be able to do it in runs, except for the plant level where you gotta kill frogs and the first auto-scroller on the final planet.

So, moving on from here... should we keep Any% the same and it's up to runners if they wanna include the glitch, or should we move over all Any% runs to "Any% no WW" by default? (WW as in wrong warp, i.e a warp done by a glitch if there's someone who doesn't know), and then if someone uploads runs which has the warps, a new Any% leaderboard could get made?

 
  Chambers_NChambers_N

There will always be difference of opinion when it comes to categorization. Personally I believe in preserving the way that a game has been played a particular way for a very long time. Therefore in this case I think we should Preserve a glitchless category that does not include a wrong Warp since this is how this game has been played forever.

Another way I like to put it is that when I go to look at a game and see all the different ways it can be played I am always curious how fast the game had been played before a particular glitch was found. If the world record holder beats their own time with a new glitch after the game had been played a certain way for 30 plus years then I would not be able to get to see how the old time compared to everybody else who played in that same manner. Yes I could look at the obsolete runs but this is not a very clear picture nor does it really show which ones were played a particular way.

Also another idea since this can only be done on the Japanese ROM that means the code or how the code is ran is not identical therefore maybe we should have a Japanese ROM leader board and a US leaderboard. Anytime there is a striking difference between Regional releases I think we should have a separate category for it.

I TASed this in Bizhawk using both the US and the JP rom and I also confirm that this glitch can only be done on the JP ROM, and it is frame perfect.

If no one has any objection I can move the JP submissions over to the Japanese Version Any%.

 
  SpiriaxSpiriax

So I have been thinking about this a little bit, and I don't know if separating the game by region is the way to go. If the different regions would impact game speed or game mechanics or text or anything that made the runs different by just running the game we do now, it would definitely be the best way. But as far as we know, the death warps is the only real difference.
Let's say I have a Famicom and the SF2010 cart, and I want to get serious with the game with no intention of going for the death warps (either because it skips too much, or because it's too hard). It would be impossible for me to even get close to top times within the JP leaderboard. We would force Famicom players to get a US NES, get a flash cart or play on emulator just so they could be competitive with the way they want to play the game.

You were talking about preserving the way the game was being played before a certain trick or glitch was found, and I agree. But separating by region won't do that. There is some runs on the leaderboard already that are on JP version; we would move them over to the other region without any difference in how the run is being played.
However, separating it by either Any% vs Any% no WW, or Any% vs Any% Glitchless will do just that.

That would be my reasons, anyway. Let me know what you think.

 
  Chambers_NChambers_N

I do agree that a change needs to occur, that much is certain.

To me, the fact that we didn't know that there was a code difference and therefore a different outcome that can be achieved on one ROM over another leads me to wonder what else there could be. In my mind, different code means different leader board. Preemptively separating them now could isolate any further differences that are discovered in the future.

If we added the only three JP runs to a JP leader board, these three will get instant 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I am sure they would appreciate that. In my mind, if someone wants to play the JP ROM but does not utilize all that ROM allows is a choice that they make and it is easy enough to see how their runs fair with US ROM runs by just clicking over.

I understand what you are saying with your suggestion. Let's do this then...

We divide based on how the game is played Any% and Any% no WW. And if anything else is found to be different between the two, even a single spawn, etc, then we can revisit the discussion and put the JP runs on their own leader board. Agreed?

 
  SpiriaxSpiriax

That works for me. Thanks for being cool.

I want to get back to this game soon-ish, and when I do I definitely wanna try the new death warps. When I do that I will definitely learn more about the JP version and if there's any more differences.

 
  WhiteHat94WhiteHat94

I agree with how you are splitting categories, my only gripe is the category name. I think the category should just be "No WW", it should no longer have "Any %" in the name if there is something major that is not allowed, it just doesn't make sense as a name.

 
  SpiriaxSpiriax

Oh, I didn't know that was a thing? I thought people always added stuff to "any%". Like with Zelda, "Any% no U+A", or like with Zelda LTTP or Super Metroid's "Any% NMG", etc. I feel like if you leave out any%, people don't know if it would be 100% or low%.

Sure, this game only has any% yet, but that isn't obvious to people who hasn't seen the run before, I think. I wouldn't be opposed to changing the name of the category, though.

 
  Chambers_NChambers_N

I modeled it based on battletoads... and think it should be fine, especially to clarify the % type as spiriax mentioned.

 
  Chambers_NChambers_N

Also I added to the rules that while one can use the JP ROM for No WW, I suggest that we use US ROM if we can for that category just in case we have to separate JP submissions later on down the road.

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  Vaan666Vaan666

Seems like this game is completely and utterly broken now for any% as this glitch also works when dying regularly by having 0 health. You can read and find out all about it here in the last post: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=471

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  Chambers_NChambers_N

Yep. How many frame Perfects are you going to go for how many frame Perfects are you going to get. Lol

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